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semi OT - powering a 460V 3P Synchrowave with 600V service.

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  • semi OT - powering a 460V 3P Synchrowave with 600V service.

    In the great white north, 460V stuff often goes for smaller dollars as most 3P services are 600V. As is mine (at the plant). There's a Miller 250 Tig welder I'd buy, but I would want to run it on 600V.

    I believe the welders peak load is about 20KVA

    Its a common enough thing that picking up a 460 - 600V 3P transformer isn't a big deal or cost. The idea would be to put it and the welding machine on a cart so it can be plugged in where ever.

    However this welding machine is single phase as they mostly seem to be and I recall hearing somewhere that a 3P transformer won't work properly if only used for 1P. Is true, partially true or nonsense? Can I buy the welder and transformer and weld away......or do I need a specifically single phase transformer (more expensive, tougher to find used?

    Thanks
    Last edited by Mcgyver; 02-15-2018, 09:42 AM.
    .

  • #2
    Originally posted by Mcgyver View Post
    In the great white north, 460V stuff often goes for smaller dollars as most 3P services are 600V. As is mine (at the plant). There's a Miller 250 Tig welder I'd buy, but I would want to run it on 600V.

    I believe the welders peak load is about 20KVA

    So picking up at 460 - 600V 3P transformer isn't a big deal......and this welding machine is single phase as they mostly seem to be. Idea would be to put it and the welding machine on a cart so it can be plugged in where ever.

    But.....I recall hearing somewhere that a 3P transformer won't work properly if only used for 1P. Is true, partially true or nonsense? Can I buy the welder and transformer and weld away......or do I need a specifically single phase transformer (more expensive, tougher to find used?

    Thanks
    Do you know the specific Miller model number? You might be able to just move some internal tap wires around for 600V service.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by 3 Phase Lightbulb View Post
      Do you know the specific Miller model number? You might be able to just move some internal tap wires around for 600V service.
      I've looked at the plate...its definitely 1P 200/230/460, no 600 tap. ITs one made for US market and they typically wouldn't have the 600 option whereas machines sold here would.
      .

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Mcgyver View Post
        I've looked at the plate...its definitely 1P 200/230/460, no 600 tap. ITs one made for US market and they typically wouldn't have the 600 option whereas machines sold here would.
        Ah yes, dang-it!

        Comment


        • #5
          You could look for a surplus single phase 480:120 transformer and connect it as auto-transformer
          provided your local codes allow that . On a cart it might be part of the appliance.
          For example, a big range of new and surplus with prices here:
          https://www.swgr.com/store/dry-type-...er.aspx/KVA/25

          Also, put a specific inquiry for a Hammond dry type Autotrans.

          But looking at used Syncrowave prices it might be cheaper to get a Canadian welder!

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Mcgyver View Post
            I've looked at the plate...its definitely 1P 200/230/460, no 600 tap. ITs one made for US market and they typically wouldn't have the 600 option whereas machines sold here would.
            I don't even pretend to be an electrician but let's take a hypothetical solution:

            If the welder is single phase with a 200/230/460 tap why couldn't you select 200 or 230. In industrial buildings usually there is a 3 phase 208 panel - for office wiring etc that utilizes a transformer. I know when wiring these panels they have to balance the load on the transformer but you can have larger loads on certain phases.

            Is running it off 200/208/230 out of the question? I only ask is that you may have a panel somewhere that offers this. If you don't I don't see why you couldn't scrounge one up as you say and wire it up that way. This is a very common setup and finding transformers should be very easy.

            What does the code say about balancing loads? If you put in a 600-208 transformer and find a used panel and run the welder off the panel I don't see why that wouldn't work.

            Again I'm not any electrician and I'm just going by what I see in shops.
            www.thecogwheel.net

            Comment


            • #7
              I think that's why all of us Canadian's (yes I was born in Canada) say "Pop" and "Eh" a lot. At 600v, we must pop a lot of components and become hard of hearing and say Eh Eh Eh all the time. I was too young to remember as we moved from Canada to the US when I was a toddler.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by enginuity View Post
                If the welder is single phase with a 200/230/460 tap why couldn't you select 200 or 230. .
                its not just what could work, there are other operational factors. It has to run off of 600V because all my distribution and plugs are 600V throughout the plant and the welder needs to be able to be moved to where ever it is needed.

                The question is what transformers might work given I have 1P or 3P 600 in and want 460 1P out....with the footnote that 3P transformers are likely easier/cheaper to find
                .

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Mcgyver View Post
                  its not just what could work, there are other operational factors. It has to run off of 600V because all my distribution and plugs are 600V throughout the plant and the welder needs to be able to be moved to where ever it is needed.

                  The question is what transformers might work given I have 1P or 3P 600 in and want 460 1P out....with the footnote that 3P transformers are likely easier/cheaper to find
                  Gotcha. You need to specifically mount the transformer on the cart. The 3 phase transformer is going to be much bulkier so the smaller size of getting a single might be worth it in the end. And the regulatory body might give you less hassle if you know what I mean.
                  www.thecogwheel.net

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by enginuity View Post
                    Gotcha. You need to specifically mount the transformer on the cart. The 3 phase transformer is going to be much bulkier so the smaller size of getting a single might be worth it in the end. And the regulatory body might give you less hassle if you know what I mean.
                    yeah, maybe. I could just splurge for 600V welder.....but I get the creeps spending money if I don't have to . I'm asking around at the used transformer places....perhaps a good deal on a 1P transformer is out there.
                    .

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      I would expect a 1PH 20kva 600V to 460V step down transformer might not be very hard to make yourself. It should be very efficient field wise so you might not need many windings at all. There are plenty of calculators out there. Anyone care to spec a DIY transformer for this?

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        I think like that for home.....at work my time would be better spent dialing for dollars. I have to stop at sourcing used and not start rolling my own.
                        .

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Mcgyver View Post
                          I think like that for home.....at work my time would be better spent dialing for dollars. I have to stop at sourcing used and not start rolling my own.
                          Yup, but if it takes you ~1 month to find a used one vs. a few hours or a day to make one that might mean more dollars in your piggy bank. That's assuming they are hard to find which I have no idea about.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Mcgyver View Post
                            I think like that for home.....at work my time would be better spent dialing for dollars. I have to stop at sourcing used and not start rolling my own.
                            Then just get the 600v machine and call it a day and stop worrying about a transformer

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by oxford View Post
                              Then just get the 600v machine and call it a day and stop worrying about a transformer
                              Yea, doesn't make any sense unless we think about it in relation to TB stackers. If getting the 600v machines means nothing left for TB stackers, and finding a transformer (Megatron would be ideal) means plenty left over for 100's of TB stackers, it's a no brainier, but only within the context of TB stackers. Hmmm,, It must be lunch time as there is only one thing on my mind right now

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