Off topic bitcoin rats deserting ship

[wierdscience]

Everyone knows that prices go up over the long run. The dollar is absolutely not stable over time. It decays with inflation, and at times, rapidly loses value, as anyone who lived through the late 70’s can attest. Did you live through the late 1970's?

Commodities are generally stable and currencies generally are not,mainly because commodities have intrinsic value based in cost of production in man hours while currencies have no intrinsic value because their value is determined by public perception.Oddly enough,or rather not,public perception about a currency or group of currencies can inflate the value of certain commodities i.e. Gold and Silver.

[danlb]

The dollar has failed as a currency. The gas station can't decide from day to day how many dollars a gallon is worth. They even have a big sign out front to let you know the "spot price".

It fails at the grocery store too. The local supermarket has taken to using barcodes so that they can change the prices daily. Simply belonging to their affinity club will change the value of a dollar by up to 50%.

Even machinery is not at a fixed price. I get an email from Harbor Freight EVERYSINGLEDAY that tells me what they think the dollar is worth. The generator I bought for $550 is now selling for $699, and only last week it was selling for $100 less.

The thing is, the dollar is a good, valid currency. Yeah, it's traded and it's devalued and inflated, but it works for billions of people. I don't buy Jerry's assertions. There are too many cases that prove it invalid.

Dan

[J Tiers]

The dollar has failed as a currency. The gas station can't decide from day to day how many dollars a gallon is worth. They even have a big sign out front to let you know the "spot price".

It fails at the grocery store too. The local supermarket has taken to using barcodes so that they can change the prices daily. Simply belonging to their affinity club will change the value of a dollar by up to 50%.

Even machinery is not at a fixed price. I get an email from Harbor Freight EVERYSINGLEDAY that tells me what they think the dollar is worth. The generator I bought for $550 is now selling for $699, and only last week it was selling for $100 less.

The thing is, the dollar is a good, valid currency. Yeah, it's traded and it's devalued and inflated, but it works for billions of people. I don't buy Jerry's assertions. There are too many cases that prove it invalid.

Dan

Nonsense.... The examples are silly.... the dollar does not change value by a factor of 2 or more overnight. Gasoline varies in price independently of other things. It goes up 10 or 15% overnight. and drifts down over a few days. It can be one price where you are, and another here. And, it is market priced based on a futures market.... the price of a barrel of oil.

Bogus argument.

Many things vary in price, perhaps even daily. The one thing that has been true is that the price of EVERYTHING does not vary AT ONCE in dollars in the short term, as in hours or days.

Someone brought up inflation a while back, as in Germany.... But there, EVERYTHING varied at once.... it was acknowledged that the Mark was what was varying.

When one thing goes up in price, and another goes down, on the same day in the same town, even in the same store..... You cannot credibly argue that the dollar is too unstable to use.... and thereby justify using the daily price of a volatile commodity as a measure of the value of the dollar. That's bogus.... fitting the facts to your prejudice, ignoring those that do not fit. Yet the fact is that the prices of various things DO go up, and down.... just generally not all at once in one direction.

If everything goes up in dollar price, we call it inflation. If everything goes down,we call it deflation. But the reality is that the dollar, for instance, tends to remain stable with a slight upward trend. The trend is not enough to cause wild daily changes, as pricing in bitcoin or gold would have done.

Suit yourself, but do try not to FOOL yourself.

[Peter.]

I gather that's only if your selling and not using it

Same for bitcoin

[Machine]

Commodities are generally stable and currencies generally are not, mainly because commodities have intrinsic value based in cost of production in man hours while currencies have no intrinsic value because their value is determined by public perception.Oddly enough,or rather not,public perception about a currency or group of currencies can inflate the value of certain commodities i.e. Gold and Silver.

Commodities generally are stable in their intrinsic value. But when you use a currency to buy and sell that commodity – especially a fiat currency with no backing other than the promises of a debtor nation? They can and do fluctuate in price, and at times dramatically. That’s why the price of commodities tend to drop or be held steady when interest rates are increased, which decreases the money supply in a way that moves things towards deflation (i.e. where prices may actually drop if the interest rates are raised enough). Oil is a good example of this because it is priced in US petro dollars on the global market.

There are other things that affect the price of commodities outside of monetary shenanigans. Technological progress can strongly impact the pricing of commodities. For instance, if you look at the historical price of foodstuffs like corn, wheat etc over the past 50 years or so, you’ll find those particular things haven’t really kept up with the pace of inflation of other things (albeit they’re still inflated). The reason this happens isn’t because the currency is not being continuously debased – because it certainly is. It’s because farming technology has exploded forward in the past ½ century in a way that makes farming much more efficient than it ever was in the past. The consolidation of so many small – and inefficient - farmers from ½ century ago into a very small number of massive “big agra” companies brings economies of scale not seen before. These companies fully leverage all advancements in insecticides, fertilizers, genetic engineering and industrial level automation in everything from tractors, planting, harvesting, storage and distribution. All those combined efficiencies have resulted in a downward trend of the true (intrinsic) pricing of traditional foodstuffs when viewed over 50 years or more. It's also one of the prime reasons why our nation has gotten so fat, but I digress.

And although electronics are not a commodity per se, the same thing has happened to them over the last half century, except they have dropped in real price even more. I remember seeing old advertisements in magazines from the 1950’s that had prices of “deluxe” television sets near $1000 - and that was in 1950’s dollars! A very princely sum today. And the features those TV’s had was pathetic compared to the cheapest sets available today for not much over $100 (or less than $10 if priced in 1950’s money). But the point being is that the prices for certain things like foodstuffs and electronics may give off the appearance of being very “stable” or immune to decades of constant inflation, but in reality there are other powerful factors completely outside of monetary considerations that are actually responsible for that apparent price stability.

The real point here is that anything that is useful as a "currency" has to have short and middle term stability IN GENERAL. You are ignoring that point. .

I’m not ignoring that point. I agree with you. Ideally, of course we need and want a currency that is stable in its value and pricing and can be used to run a proper economy of a modern, democratic republic such as the USA. Absolutely in agreement with you on that.

“Looking at bitcoin, which has jumped many thousand percent over a short time... HOW would you manage to price any piece of goods when the theoretical buying power of the currency can vary 2 to 1 overnight?”


You’re preaching to the choir here. I am no advocate of bitcoin or any other crypto other than I really like the idea of our Federal Reserve notes having competition. If cryptos, or any other alternative money, can somehow be made to work by providing a less inflationary alternative to the dollar? And thereby forcing the Fed and our government to stop inflating our currency? Then I am all for it. Inflation is an insidious hidden tax on us all. Especially for older people on fixed incomes and also for hard working, responsible people who save their earnings and have no desire to put their money at risk into the ponzi scheme casino called Wall Street.

In that sense I do have hope that one of these cryptos or something similar to it does evolve to threaten the privately owned, Federal Reserve debt based money system. I have hope, but I’m not optimistic the most powerful people in the world will let any alternative currency threaten its monopoly. Bitcoin specifically is probably destined to crash and burn.

“Correct, there is NO WAY to operate a business that way. You cannot set a salary, you cannot write a contract with a price in it. It is totally unworkable. BOTH gold and bitcoin have failed that test.”


You mix gold and bitcoin up as if they’re interchangeable. They are not. One is a rare, lustrous physical metal that has a track record as a monetary unit with inherent value (to human beings) going back thousands of years. When King Tut was removed from his tomb, his mask was made out of pure gold. There’s a reason it wasn’t made out of papier mache. The other is a digital quark that exists only inside a computer and has only been around a few years. One is physical, rich in history and with proven value and permanence…the other is ethereal, here today and probably gone tomorrow. So the two are not comparable.

Whether or not gold can be used as a monetary unit? We certainly know it can be. It has been used for thousands of years and continues to be used today for that purpose (albeit on a much smaller scale). Whether it’s “workable” is debatable. Gold has been historically manipulated by the powers that be when it was tied to our currency (and others too). Its supply was modulated by the bankers to cause depression and boom cycles. The banks would trigger a depression by buying up all the gold, locking it up in their vaults and shrinking the money supply. After the depression hit, the banks would then come in and buy up all the distressed/foreclosed properties and commodities at cut rate prices. Then, they would increase the gold (money) supply to restore the economy, raise prices and labor wages and eventually create another boom cycle. The process was typically repeated every 10-20 years or so.

There’s a guy named Bill Still who created an interesting documentary called “Money Masters” and also "Secret of Oz." He talks about this very subject and warns against the evils of returning to the gold standard. He says we should use govt issued money that is not created as debt based notes by the privately owned “Federal” Reserve as it is today. I agree with most of what he says. You can see his videos here if you’re interested.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YFDKr9SnTBg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2VauMFaHJT0

[danlb]

Nonsense.... The examples are silly....

If Jerry read the whole post, he would have seen that they were supposed to be. He made the assertion that a major requirement of a currency is that it has a fixed, consistent value when compared to goods. I showed that it was not the case.

[J Tiers]

This site may help you.

https://zapatopi.net/afdb/

And, since pricing on most items is consistent for weeks at a time, or more, you have shown nothing of any meaningful substance in the discussion.

Gasoline goes up one day... you say inflation is up..... but bread and milk and Walmart junk stay the same, and the rent is not changed..... Gasoline drifts down to be cheaper than before..... so I have to assume you think inflation has been reversed for a while... but, of course bread, milk, Walmart junk and the rent have not changed.....

You have a fundamental lack of understanding of the short term vs long term averages.... Inflation of dollars is long term. Changes in gold or bitcoin are daily, even hourly.... YOU explain how to price items if the currency doubles overnight, or drops in value, as bitcoin has... And I will not hold my breath waiting , because there is no way to deal with that. It is an economy destroyer.

Dollars hold their purchasing power over a sensible time, by mutual agreement of all of us, aided by banks stabilizing them. Not one thing wrong with that, but you all seem to think it is bad.

Do try to have a nice life, if you can.

[danlb]

This site may help you.



And, since pricing on most items is consistent for weeks at a time, or more, you have shown nothing of any meaningful substance in the discussion.

Why add yet another condition to validate your argument at this late stage? That's a sign of a bogus argument.

I propose a vote for "the king of what's meaningful". Jerry seems to think he was elected. If he does no like someone's posts, he should just skip them.

Dan

[George Bulliss]

Why add yet another condition to validate your argument at this late stage? That's a sign of a bogus argument.

I propose a vote for "the king of what's meaningful". Jerry seems to think he was elected. If he does no like someone's posts, he should just skip them.

Dan

I'm getting sick and tired of watching you and Jerry go at it. You guys end up trashing every thread you jump into. If you want to argue with each other, take it somewhere else.

[danlb]

I'm getting sick and tired of watching you and Jerry go at it. You guys end up trashing every thread you jump into. If you want to argue with each other, take it somewhere else.

Sorry George.

[d kirby]

I'm getting sick and tired of watching you and Jerry go at it. You guys end up trashing every thread you jump into. If you want to argue with each other, take it somewhere else.

Thank you George!!

[J Tiers]

I'm getting sick and tired of watching you and Jerry go at it. You guys end up trashing every thread you jump into. If you want to argue with each other, take it somewhere else.

I really do try to ignore, but I get sucked into arguing too often.

You are correct.

[Danl]

I actually enjoyed this debate and hope it doesn't die or get locked out right away.

Our monetary system is based on consumer confidence, right? So if the US $ dropped to near zero value tomorrow, then those who have other precious transferable commodities would be doing fine if they actually have a way of measuring the transferred amounts to a degree acceptable between buyer and seller.

So if A has a bar of gold, silver, etc., and wants to purchase food, or whatever, he would need to shave off just the right amount to complete the purchase. Seems to me that if we ever get to that place, it's going to go fairly rough on the multitudes of folks who did not have the foresight to buy the precious stuff.

hmmm....

Dan L

[3 Phase Lightbulb]

I'm trying very hard not to load up on bitcoin. My gut is telling me to "just chill, you don't need any more". But my crazy side wants to spend like a MOFO and buy up as much of it as I can afford to loose and see what happens.

[tomato coupe]

I'm trying very hard not to load up on bitcoin. My gut is telling me to "just chill, you don't need any more". But my crazy side wants to spend like a MOFO and buy up as much of it as I can afford to loose and see what happens.

Go big or go home ...