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  • #46
    It's said that scientific thought isn't changed by persuasive arguments as much as by a series of funerals.
    For just a little more, you can do it yourself!

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    • #47
      PSTECH PAUL:

      I do not "fear those vehemently". I am not opposed to EVs. Forty or so years ago I had a project going to assemble one for my own use back in the days when they were not purchasable. May still have the plans. Still have some pf the parts. I decided then that it was expensive, and did not meet my needs. Back then, rabid EV folks would make large, and often rather limiting, lifestyle changes to adapt their behavior to the radically different capability of the EV. I was not in a position to do that.

      My comments are simply that regardless of what you or tomato coupe wish to believe, it is a FACT that I am hearing the arguments promoting universal applicability MORE rather than less. I have started to hear the argument that if your lifestyle does not fit, then it is YOU who are "wrong". I never used to hear that. Perhaps this is a function of the national shift to "whatever I say, is automatically right", popularized by our political leaders. I do not know.

      I am just reporting FACT. We have even seen it here, more among the "self driving car" folks.... Some among them think "I want one, so YOU should want one too, in fact you may HAVE TO accept one soon".

      I have never said EVs "will never work", I HAVE said that there is a lack of infrastructure that makes them impractical. I have said that choices made in the way batteries are used have pre-limited the usability of EVs for more general applications.... made them unsuitable and impractical by design, when different choices would have gone much farther toward universal practicality and "future proofing" of existing and upcoming vehicles.

      People have tried to explain that away by reducing the "design uses" to those that can be handled given the poor choices made.... Changing what they say can be done, backing away from expansive rhetoric when challenged, basically backpedaling on what EVs are "for". This does not impress me, we all know, even if some do not like to admit it, that different choices would radically improve usability. Even the "explainers-away" admit it, they just use the old "yes, but" to explain away the bad choices by bringing up arguments that purport to prove those ideas "would never work".

      It seems that the "that would never work" shoe is actually on the other foot... being used by "rabid" proponents, and not by me.

      I do not oppose ANY PART of the EV movement OTHER THAN those who seek to force the use, or exclusive use, of EVs onto folks for whom they are obviously unsuited as they are now known and manufactured. "Unsuited" may be for reasons of cost, for practicality reasons related to range, or charging availability, climate, etc.

      The grid issues, etc, will sort themselves out. Things will either get upgraded, or folks will refuse to pay for work that primarily benefits a few rich folks and their "tech toys". Could go either way, It's a fact that Nuclear power is declining in the US, and will shortly drop off abruptly, as most existing plants are reaching their "end of life" and cannot be recertified as-is. The same folks who promote EVs have in many cases been instrumental in preventing new nuc construction, so no more will come on line (may be good, considering their utterly wasteful fuel use pattern) Coal likewise is dropping off, largely on cost to maintain. That leaves a big gap for which there is nothing proposed to fill it.

      Originally posted by tomato coupe View Post
      You seem to be implying that the batteries will need to be replaced at 100k miles, based upon the length of the manufacturer's warranty. Would you also assume that the engine and transmission in a Honda Civic will need to be replaced at 60k miles, based on it's 60k mile powertrain warranty?
      The battery life is related to the number of charge cycles.....not necessarily miles, although there is obviously a connection. A cycle is usage of the battery down to some point close to but above the absolute minimum charge state, and a recharge to the original state. The start point may be 100%, but is commonly considered to be something just below that, anywhere from maybe 90% to maybe 99%, to avoid effects from trying to pack that last bit of capacity in, which often takes longer and induces more heating, more "wear and tear" on the battery.

      The charge cycle will therefore vary by the assumed "daily commute" or "daily usage", vs the vehicle range. A Nissan Leaf (per reports from at least 3 owners I know, but who do not know each other) struggles to complete normal daily usage in St Louis. Therefore Leaf drivers would use far more "charge cycles" than a Tesla driver would, per week, and likely would encounter shorter life, for that, and other reasons. The leaf drivers I know report needing to charge every night when in daily use. One also reports a severe permanent drop in capacity when the car was left in a full charge state but off-charge, while they were out of town for some weeks, so it is not just "usage" that saps capacity, it may be "non-usage", phantom loads in the vehicle.

      The Tesla driver might opt to charge only when well down, or might be the sort who charges back to 100% every night. Charging every night MAY be more stressful than one full charge when needed. Part of that is that a battery left to "rest" often recovers capacity that may for instance, be temporarily lost to "polarization". A routine of arrive home and put right on charge might therefore end up with more charge time than an "as needed" strategy, or a strategy of the "put on charge when going to bed", which would charge presumably after recovery was complete, or nearly so.

      Battery life " in years" or even "in miles" is therefore sufficiently affected by user behavior, that a realistic number is only an estimate of the probable range of lifetime.
      Last edited by J Tiers; 10-23-2018, 02:10 AM. Reason: added point of "in years" or even "in miles"
      CNC machines only go through the motions.

      Ideas expressed may be mine, or from anyone else in the universe.
      Not responsible for clerical errors. Or those made by lay people either.
      Number formats and units may be chosen at random depending on what day it is.
      I reserve the right to use a number system with any integer base without prior notice.
      Generalizations are understood to be "often" true, but not true in every case.

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      • #48
        If I believed I needed to reduce my carbon footprint, I would give a damn.

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        • #49
          I wonder how many years electrically powered vehicles will be allowed to ride on the backs of those that pay fuel taxes that in turn support the road and highway infrastructure that EVs will be using?
          Will EV owners pay an additional charge on their electrical service bill to help pay their fair share, or will the rest of us be asked to subsidize them in order to ease the transition?
          I think I already know who is going to pay for electrical infrastructure upgrades.
          Home, down in the valley behind the Red Angus
          Bad Decisions Make Good Stories​

          Location: British Columbia

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          • #50
            Originally posted by Willy View Post
            I wonder how many years electrically powered vehicles will be allowed to ride on the backs of those that pay fuel taxes that in turn support the road and highway infrastructure that EVs will be using?
            Will EV owners pay an additional charge on their electrical service bill to help pay their fair share, or will the rest of us be asked to subsidize them in order to ease the transition?
            I think I already know who is going to pay for electrical infrastructure upgrades.
            Income tax, property tax, and sales tax pay more towards construction and maintenance of roads than fuel taxes. Some critics of EVs complain they are toys of the rich, in which case their owners are likely paying more than their fair share of "road" taxes.

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            • #51
              Originally posted by J Tiers View Post
              I do not oppose ANY PART of the EV movement OTHER THAN those who seek to force the use, or exclusive use, of EVs onto folks for whom they are obviously unsuited as they are now known and manufactured. "Unsuited" may be for reasons of cost, for practicality reasons related to range, or charging availability, climate, etc.
              We (you, me, and Paul) are probably all in complete agreement then. We oppose forcing EVs on everybody, and disagree with fringe groups that advocate that course of action.

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              • #52
                Originally posted by tomato coupe View Post
                You seem to be implying that the batteries will need to be replaced at 100k miles, based upon the length of the manufacturer's warranty. Would you also assume that the engine and transmission in a Honda Civic will need to be replaced at 60k miles, based on it's 60k mile powertrain warranty?
                If you have been following the scene at all you should know that Leaf batteries are infamous for short life. Early ones from ~2012-2013 often lost half of the range before 60k miles.
                Current batch of Leaf's should be better.
                Location: Helsinki, Finland, Europe

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                • #53
                  Originally posted by MattiJ View Post
                  ... Leaf batteries are infamous for short life. Early ones from ~2012-2013 often lost half of the range before 60k miles.
                  Okay. I thought you might have been predicting battery life based on the warranty period, which didn't make sense to me.

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                  • #54
                    Interesting read.. big $ being pumped into ev's.. Europe off the back.

                    Europe gave the world some of its top automakers, but it's losing out to China in the race to build batteries for electric cars.

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                    • #55
                      There is an adage that is so true !
                      "you can't get something for nothing"

                      Some folks argue over and over about their interests---without evaluating the "whole" equation
                      Rich
                      Green Bay, WI

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                      • #56
                        Boy, I leave for a week and when I get back I see this? hehe

                        The initial post is somewhat faulty, since it looks only at one pollutant and ignores nitrous oxides as well as particulates. If you want the full picture, you have to do W2W ( well to wheel) efficiency comparisons which capture all the efficiency losses from the time the well is drilled to the time the energy turns the tire on the car. That was not done here. One of the reasons that W2W is not popular is that it's hard to do across multiple sources. How do you quantify the energy that went into building the Hoover dam and assign those costs to each KWH produced over the last 83 years?

                        Moving on, none of the EV enthusiasts on this site say that electric cars meet everyone's needs. I certainly don't and I probably live in one of the more EV and solar dense areas of the US. They do meet the needs for some, and are doing that pretty well. But I will point out that many scientists believe that at some point in the future, probably in our lifetime, we will need to use something other than fossil fuels to power our cars. When that time comes, it will be fortuitous that we have been researching alternatives for many decades.


                        BTW, despite the fact that I can see half a dozen plug in hybrids and electric cars from my front door there has been no grid overload so far.

                        Dan
                        At the end of the project, there is a profound difference between spare parts and left over parts.

                        Location: SF East Bay.

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                        • #57
                          Everyone knows that battery production has no environmental impact. Just like solar cell production. Free lunch!

                          So every household gets a solar panel and an EV and all the petro wars stop, and everyone lives healthy, happy lives.

                          GET REAL! We are HUMAN! we have to fight over SOMETHING for god's sake.

                          CO2 AIDS the production of food crops, PLANTS love the stuff. Along with increasing temperatures if that is happening.

                          "Full belly's, and the people are happy" Lao Tsu

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