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OT: Sad day in aviation: Collings B17 has crashed

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  • There was a local fellow that was a fighter pilot in WW 2,he was quite a character.After spending a afternoon in the Bar with a bunch freinds,one fellow was ribbing him about his flying abilities.The guy said if your that good of pilot why don't you fly threw between the grain elevators.A measuring tape and crowd gathered at the two grain elevators that were 80' high and the space between came in at 12" wider than the pilots private plane,he stated that's lot of room.He got in his plane and flew between as fast as it would go about 20' off the ground.The spectators said it was like the plane was on some kind of guidance system as numerous ones said he was dead center and the wings were horizontal.This was a long time ago but the pilot had a lot of talent considering having a belly full of booze.

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    • Originally posted by Tundra Twin Track View Post
      There was a local fellow that was a fighter pilot in WW 2,he was quite a character.After spending a afternoon in the Bar with a bunch freinds,one fellow was ribbing him about his flying abilities.The guy said if your that good of pilot why don't you fly threw between the grain elevators.A measuring tape and crowd gathered at the two grain elevators that were 80' high and the space between came in at 12" wider than the pilots private plane,he stated that's lot of room.He got in his plane and flew between as fast as it would go about 20' off the ground.The spectators said it was like the plane was on some kind of guidance system as numerous ones said he was dead center and the wings were horizontal.This was a long time ago but the pilot had a lot of talent considering having a belly full of booze.
      I have no issues letting him be the better pilot, or anyone else that does something similar.
      I'm just here for the paycheck!!

      Comment


      • Originally posted by RB211 View Post
        I have no issues letting him be the better pilot, or anyone else that does something similar.
        I'm just here for the paycheck!!
        I'm Sure the Grain Elevators trick would have been child's play compared to dodging enemy fire in War Time!

        Comment


        • Since we're telling "war stories" here one from a buddy that worked for a now long gone local hop outfit.

          The outfit flew out of the harbor so obviously lots of float planes. But one day they got a deal on an older Grumman Goose I think it was. Amphib either way. One of the higher up's picked it up from the airport and took off from the runway. It was a short hop from the airport to the harbor. In that time he forgot to retract the wheels. He's on final for a water landing when his local guy on the docks panic radios him that his wheels are down and to abort. So up he goes and flicks the switch. But now he's so flustered that he decides to hop back to the airport and touch down there. Yep, forgot that he had flipped up the gear or didn't trust the switch and didn't bother to look out and see what was what. Tore up the belly fairly badly when he scraped in to a halt.
          Chilliwack BC, Canada

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          • here a link to the NTSB preliminary report:

            https://app.ntsb.gov/pdfgenerator/Re...relim&IType=MA

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Ringo View Post
              here a link to the NTSB preliminary report:

              https://app.ntsb.gov/pdfgenerator/Re...relim&IType=MA
              What I found interesting was that 3 of the engines had zero hours since major overhaul. If I am not mistaken, right after overhaul is the most likely time for a engine to fail. Also interesting was that the flaps were determined in the retracted position, not good for a slow landing approach.

              Only a guess but with one or two engines out and no flaps deployed, a stall near ground level and perhaps dipping a wing in the process seems reasonable. I will be interested to hear what RB211 has to say. The report seems to confirm that fuel was not at issue.

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              • Sparky, the engines had just been rebuilt prior to the last anual inspection in Jan.

                Review of maintenance records revealed that the airplane's most recent annual
                inspection was completed on January 16, 2019. At that time, the airframe had accumulated
                about 11,120 total hours of operation. Engine Nos. 1, 2, and 3 had 0 hours since major overhaul
                at that time.
                At the end of the project, there is a profound difference between spare parts and left over parts.

                Location: SF East Bay.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Sparky_NY View Post
                  What I found interesting was that 3 of the engines had zero hours since major overhaul. If I am not mistaken, right after overhaul is the most likely time for a engine to fail. Also interesting was that the flaps were determined in the retracted position, not good for a slow landing approach.

                  Only a guess but with one or two engines out and no flaps deployed, a stall near ground level and perhaps dipping a wing in the process seems reasonable. I will be interested to hear what RB211 has to say. The report seems to confirm that fuel was not at issue.
                  no, flaps up would be a normal approach, with engine out, to extend your approach, the cleanest wing is preferred.
                  flaps are drag, and with engine out you want least drag

                  the most glaring point in the whole report is that says right downwind approach,
                  a right side approach turns him into the bad engine side, that is weird to me

                  Comment


                  • Juan Browne's comments on report

                    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5YN4QAdji7Y
                    CNC machines only go through the motions

                    Comment


                    • I have no clue what happened... It defies all probabilities. We may never know.

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                      • (reactivating old thread)

                        Citing a poor safety culture, the FAA prohibits the Collings Foundation from carrying passengers:

                        https://www.courant.com/news/connect...jyi-story.html


                        From the article:

                        "An inspection of the bomber’s engines found problems significant enough to cause the FAA to question “whether the engines were inspected adequately and in accordance with the applicable maintenance requirements.”

                        Specifically, the inspection found that magneto and ignition failures existed in the aircraft’s No. 4 engine. Magnetos, engine-driven electrical generators that produce voltage to fire the engine’s spark plugs, were not functioning properly. An attempt to jury rig one had left it inoperative, according to the report. A second magneto on the No. 4 engine, when tested, produced a weak or no spark to four of the nine cylinders it was supposed to fire."

                        ...

                        "Inspectors also found that all spark plugs required cleaning and that all of the electrode gaps were out of tolerance. Further engine inspection “indicated signs of detonation and associated damage," the decision reads."
                        ...

                        "An inspection of the No. 3 engine showed “all spark plug electrode gaps were out of tolerance, fouled, and revealed various signs of detonation." Inspection of the engine also revealed problems with the cylinders, according to the report."

                        The FAA report can be read here:

                        https://www.scribd.com/document/4533...ion#from_embed


                        The final NTSB report on the accident is not yet complete.


                        Last edited by tlfamm; 03-26-2020, 06:43 PM.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by tlfamm View Post
                          (reactivating old thread)

                          Citing a poor safety culture, the FAA prohibits the Collings Foundation from carrying passengers:

                          https://www.courant.com/news/connect...jyi-story.html


                          From the article:

                          "An inspection of the bomber’s engines found problems significant enough to cause the FAA to question “whether the engines were inspected adequately and in accordance with the applicable maintenance requirements.”

                          Specifically, the inspection found that magneto and ignition failures existed in the aircraft’s No. 4 engine. Magnetos, engine-driven electrical generators that produce voltage to fire the engine’s spark plugs, were not functioning properly. An attempt to jury rig one had left it inoperative, according to the report. A second magneto on the No. 4 engine, when tested, produced a weak or no spark to four of the nine cylinders it was supposed to fire."

                          ...

                          "Inspectors also found that all spark plugs required cleaning and that all of the electrode gaps were out of tolerance. Further engine inspection “indicated signs of detonation and associated damage," the decision reads."
                          ...

                          "An inspection of the No. 3 engine showed “all spark plug electrode gaps were out of tolerance, fouled, and revealed various signs of detonation." Inspection of the engine also revealed problems with the cylinders, according to the report."

                          The FAA report can be read here:

                          https://www.scribd.com/document/4533...ion#from_embed


                          The final NTSB report on the accident is not yet complete.

                          And who was the head mechanic? The Captain that died in the crash. Didn't know the guy so don't want to label him with "cowboy", but as far as being a mechanic, he did some pencil whipping. Dicking around with the magnetos? There's only a handful of guys in this country who are well respected to work on those old complex ones.

                          Comment


                          • I can't let my wife read this. She'll never let me take a ride for charity at an air show again.

                            From a previous post: Engine Nos. 1, 2, and 3 had 0 hours since major overhaul shortly before the crash. What kind of overhaul does not include spark plug maintenance?

                            Dan
                            At the end of the project, there is a profound difference between spare parts and left over parts.

                            Location: SF East Bay.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by danlb View Post
                              I can't let my wife read this. She'll never let me take a ride for charity at an air show again.

                              From a previous post: Engine Nos. 1, 2, and 3 had 0 hours since major overhaul shortly before the crash. What kind of overhaul does not include spark plug maintenance?

                              Dan
                              Exactly...

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by danlb View Post
                                I can't let my wife read this. She'll never let me take a ride for charity at an air show again.

                                From a previous post: Engine Nos. 1, 2, and 3 had 0 hours since major overhaul shortly before the crash. What kind of overhaul does not include spark plug maintenance?

                                Dan
                                A cheap one. Better question is who was the FAA IA inspector who was signing off the 100hr inspection and maintenance logbooks to approve for flight? And my answer is: the FAA is more interested in paperwork and pencil pushing that actual real time airframe and engine conditions, most of the time the inspector has no idea what they are looking at with old warbirds or odd equipment. Many times I have had to school them on our aircraft. Most just want to get done, get the paperwork in order and go to lunch.

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