OT: Sad day in aviation: Collings B17 has crashed

[RB211]

OT: Sad day in aviation: Collings B17 has crashed

I referred to cowboy pilots as the (cargo freighter) guys that fly through weather instead of around it. then they say 'look how much fuel i saved"
same type guys get lightning strikes then deny they went through weather, they get cargo scattered over the cabin then deny they went through turbulance (weather),
they do a route faster then other pilots, then deny they are the one that burnt up the engines.......
they dont crash & burn, but they are really hard on equipment., and expensive

They are the same guys that don't report a prop strike, then down the road end up trying to kill my friend or I when the crankshaft snaps and the single engine airplane at night over the mountains is all of a sudden a glider...

[Ringo]

I referred to cowboy pilots as the (cargo freighter) guys that fly through weather instead of around it. then they say 'look how much fuel i saved"
same type guys get lightning strikes then deny they went through weather, they get cargo scattered over the cabin then deny they went through turbulance (weather),
they do a route faster then other pilots, then deny they are the one that burnt up the engines.......
they dont crash & burn, but they are really hard on equipment., and expensive

[RB211]

Perhaps there is confusion to the term Cow Boy in aviation.
Some one who doesn't follow procedures, does their own thing, won't listen to crew, shuts down all CRM, takes unnecessary risks, and is often impossible to teach. Such people these days are weeded out of the airlines in a blink of an eye.
They usually find a place in corporate aviation, are the dicks that will never let the FO fly, and convince the bosses that he is irreplaceable. Meanwhile the FO goes elsewhere, gets on with South West, and adds the CA to the no hire list, and the CA wonders why South West will never call him even after paying for a 737 type rating.
Yes, there is a ton of that going on too. Always be nice to everyone.

[danlb]

A cowboy is a risk taker??? My brother is a cowboy private pilot. The scariest words you never want to hear are often uttered after you land.

"I should have gone around, but thought I could make it, and I was right!"

[A.K. Boomer]

What's a cowboy in this context?

https://youtu.be/fgY3myrJUEw

[J Tiers]

Seems good, a bit draconian, but that is probably totally justified given the responsibilities.

Seems that it might not apply in this case, as these guys seem to have been flying together a fair time. That usually rubs off the sharp edges, working together in a volunteer situation.

[tomato coupe]

Well, the FAA mandated the CRM training, and consisted at first of recording the crew on video interacting. This allowed the instructors to discuss with the pilots how they interact with each other. Turns out, most pilots come across as something completely different than what they think they do. Instructor tells the the Captain that he was a total asshole. Captain doesn't believe it, is shown the video, and is shocked. Captain learns that he shuts down all crew interaction with his poor attitude. Captain goes back on the line, first officers report him for being a dick, he gets called in to do a carpet dance. Sometimes a good yelling, sometimes remedial training, sometimes a downgrade to first officer. Repeat offenders often get fired.
CRM creates a culture where such behavior is not tolerated, no longer is the Captain Atilla the Hun. He may still be God, as long as he is respectful and allows for full crew input, interaction.
It truly is a culture, and dicks aren't tolerated.
As for the idiots or bad pilots... I am currently at my yearly recurrent training in the simulator getting my ass kicked. Luckily I can fly the airplane even if I screw up the procedures, the safety of flight isn't in question. My company respects good sticks, but it is a good thing, allows me to get back up to speed on the procedures for things we don't see 99% of the time. If I screw up, I go into a program and do the sim every 6 months. If I rack up three failures on checking events, they can fire me. Recurrent training is stressful as you are performing to keep your career.
Guys who really screw up on the line and have a bad attitude about it are often fired immediately.
Pilots who have a substance abuse issue and self report it before getting in trouble can go into the HIMS program which is a program that will save their career. If you get in trouble before self disclosing, you're usually done.
Most flights I do, there's three other pilots, and you better believe we are judging each others actions and catching errors before they develop into problems.

TLR CRM = No dicks in the cockpit, procedures strictly followed, entire flight crew works as a team, Atilla the Huns are fired/downgraded/etc.

What's a cowboy in this context?

[RB211]

I think there are still a few oddities around. That Canadian deal where the crew landed at the wrong place, and some "removed for being drunk" etc. They end up removing themselves, but hopefully just themselves.

What were the means by which CRM has removed "cowboys" , and hopefully also "idiots"?

Well, the FAA mandated the CRM training, and consisted at first of recording the crew on video interacting. This allowed the instructors to discuss with the pilots how they interact with each other. Turns out, most pilots come across as something completely different than what they think they do. Instructor tells the the Captain that he was a total asshole. Captain doesn't believe it, is shown the video, and is shocked. Captain learns that he shuts down all crew interaction with his poor attitude. Captain goes back on the line, first officers report him for being a dick, he gets called in to do a carpet dance. Sometimes a good yelling, sometimes remedial training, sometimes a downgrade to first officer. Repeat offenders often get fired.
CRM creates a culture where such behavior is not tolerated, no longer is the Captain Atilla the Hun. He may still be God, as long as he is respectful and allows for full crew input, interaction.
It truly is a culture, and dicks aren't tolerated.
As for the idiots or bad pilots... I am currently at my yearly recurrent training in the simulator getting my ass kicked. Luckily I can fly the airplane even if I screw up the procedures, the safety of flight isn't in question. My company respects good sticks, but it is a good thing, allows me to get back up to speed on the procedures for things we don't see 99% of the time. If I screw up, I go into a program and do the sim every 6 months. If I rack up three failures on checking events, they can fire me. Recurrent training is stressful as you are performing to keep your career.
Guys who really screw up on the line and have a bad attitude about it are often fired immediately.
Pilots who have a substance abuse issue and self report it before getting in trouble can go into the HIMS program which is a program that will save their career. If you get in trouble before self disclosing, you're usually done.
Most flights I do, there's three other pilots, and you better believe we are judging each others actions and catching errors before they develop into problems.

TLR CRM = No dicks in the cockpit, procedures strictly followed, entire flight crew works as a team, Atilla the Huns are fired/downgraded/etc.

[garyhlucas]

I just looked the NTSB site video for the first time. That Quonset hut was actually a tent and the metal building to the left was put up while I was working there to house vacuum evaporators that concentrated up the Glycol to about 50% from the 10% or so that we produced in the tent. You can see the equipment I installed through the big hole. In the center is an ultrafiltration unit and behind it you can see the large white tubes of the 2 stage RO unit. Glad I was NOT there for this!

[J Tiers]

I think there are still a few oddities around. That Canadian deal where the crew landed at the wrong place, and some "removed for being drunk" etc. They end up removing themselves, but hopefully just themselves.

What were the means by which CRM has removed "cowboys" , and hopefully also "idiots"?

[RB211]

I am sure that is very true, my point was the existence of a few cowboys out there.

CRM removed the cowboys from the cockpit at 121 airlines

[Sparky_NY]

There are two points in aviation history where fatalities had a significant drop. The wide scale adoption of gas turbine engines, and the second, adoption of Crew Resource Management.

I am sure that is very true, my point was the existence of a few cowboys out there.

[RB211]

I remember a turboprop crash years ago where the final report showed the pilot intentionally put the engines into beta/ reverse thrust position before touchdown. Apparently not the first time either.


https://apnews.com/11e40928395518d4ebb7b34dd67ea209

There are two points in aviation history where fatalities had a significant drop. The wide scale adoption of gas turbine engines, and the second, adoption of Crew Resource Management.

[Sparky_NY]

You've never seen the B52 crash at the airshow? The Florida Jet 737-200 crash into the icy waters on takeoff, or countless other crashes where CRM wasn't followed due to cowboy attitudes?

I remember a turboprop crash years ago where the final report showed the pilot intentionally put the engines into beta/ reverse thrust position before touchdown. Apparently not the first time either.

https://apnews.com/11e40928395518d4ebb7b34dd67ea209

[PStechPaul]

On August 31, 1988, I was flying into DFW, and we could see smoke and wreckage on the ground as we were landing. After landing, we learned that a plane had crashed on take-off, and it was determined that the crew had been joking around and had neglected to properly configure the aircraft for take-off. Also a critical alarm was non functional, not checked by maintenance.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delta_Air_Lines_Flight_1141

https://www.dallasnews.com/photos/2013/08/31/today-in-dallas-photo-history-1988-crash-at-d-fw-airport-kills-14/