OT: Sad day in aviation: Collings B17 has crashed

[RB211]

Funny you to mention the 'cowboy' attitude.
I've seen cowboy pilots get lightning strikes, turbulence inspections, hard landings inspections, et. al.,
BUT, I've not seen a cowboy pilot 'crash & burn' in a heap.
Just sayin'........30years A&P

You've never seen the B52 crash at the airshow? The Florida Jet 737-200 crash into the icy waters on takeoff, or countless other crashes where CRM wasn't followed due to cowboy attitudes?

[Ringo]

Funny you to mention the 'cowboy' attitude.
I've seen cowboy pilots get lightning strikes, turbulence inspections, hard landings inspections, et. al.,
BUT, I've not seen a cowboy pilot 'crash & burn' in a heap.
Just sayin'........30years A&P

[J Tiers]

Cockpit picture. Presumably the 4 large levers are throttle, and the smaller ones forward of that are the mixture controls.

https://shootaviation.com/sets-and-mockups/cockpit-mockups/b17-flying-fortress-ww2-bomber-cockpit/#0.00077600%201570671079-gallery-2

[RB211]

there is no single control common to all 4 engines.
aircraft are not designed this way, nor, certificated this way, never has been, and still not today.
I am able to speak for this as a mech on the old school stuff as well as the new fly-by-wire stuff.
This incident just plain smells of fuel contamination...............just sayin'

It would be the most likely scenario. I doubt they shut the fuel off by accident and not catch the mistake during a procedure. However, depending on the culture at an organization, such a thing may not be far fetched. Places with a "cowboy" mentality are far more susceptible to that than say a heavy CRM 121 airline culture. I have no idea what the culture is like at Collings. All of this should come out in the NTSB report which will probably take a year. Still waiting on the Atlas 767 Houston crash that my friend died in.

[Ringo]

I don't know much about planes but do think I know what your talking about and it's right in line with proper thinking as a single master control that is linked to all 4 engines,,, in theory it's as logical as looking at the fuel source and depending on the tank feed layout perhaps more so....

there is no single control common to all 4 engines.
aircraft are not designed this way, nor, certificated this way, never has been, and still not today.
I am able to speak for this as a mech on the old school stuff as well as the new fly-by-wire stuff.
This incident just plain smells of fuel contamination...............just sayin'

[Ringo]

100LL loves to suck in moisture, especially if the tanks aren't full. Always had water in the fuel every time I flew a bug smasher in Florida. I'd find it very peculiar if they forgot to sump the drains. You have four engines which each cylinder has two spark plugs, and two separate magnetos per engine. I don't know the fuel system on the B17, nor any of the procedures for one, but the likelihood of multiple engine failures, at the engines is too remote to even consider. ( contaminated fuel however would be one of the most likely scenarios, but ruled out already?) Was maintenance done on the thrust quadrant? Were cables undone and not properly re-secured?
I only think of that because I flew with some one that crashed because of the throttle cables becoming undone in the quadrant Both engines went to idle after takeoff. He survived and has a stainless steel tube in his throat where the clip board became lodged. Gives him an interesting accent.

Correct me if I am wrong, but, the aircraft was on its way returning to home FROM a tour, not, departing FOR a tour. Therefore maintenance issues and theories are somewhat diluted.
As an A&P, (not a pilot) I'm not seeing anything here that remotely suggests maintenance as the issue.
I can only remotely imagine 2 things that would cause a good pilot to feather #3 & #4 engine-at low gross weight-and come up short to approach-AFTER-he was aligned with runway:
Bad fuel (gas truck), or, somebody shut off fuel in the cockpit (pilot error)

[A.K. Boomer]

Was maintenance done on the thrust quadrant? Were cables undone and not properly re-secured?
I only think of that because I flew with some one that crashed because of the throttle cables becoming undone in the quadrant Both engines went to idle after takeoff.

I don't know much about planes but do think I know what your talking about and it's right in line with proper thinking as a single master control that is linked to all 4 engines,,, in theory it's as logical as looking at the fuel source and depending on the tank feed layout perhaps more so....

[RB211]

100LL loves to suck in moisture, especially if the tanks aren't full. Always had water in the fuel every time I flew a bug smasher in Florida. I'd find it very peculiar if they forgot to sump the drains. You have four engines which each cylinder has two spark plugs, and two separate magnetos per engine. I don't know the fuel system on the B17, nor any of the procedures for one, but the likelihood of multiple engine failures, at the engines is too remote to even consider. ( contaminated fuel however would be one of the most likely scenarios, but ruled out already?) Was maintenance done on the thrust quadrant? Were cables undone and not properly re-secured?
I only think of that because I flew with some one that crashed because of the throttle cables becoming undone in the quadrant Both engines went to idle after takeoff. He survived and has a stainless steel tube in his throat where the clip board became lodged. Gives him an interesting accent.

[Ringo]

First thing I want to do is inventory count the fuel farm.
Did they write a receipt for XXX gallons Jet fuel to that aircraft?
Did the fuel farm do a daily check to see how much fuel was sold on a receipts vs what they got in the ground vs whats in the trucks?
Does it all jive?

[A.K. Boomer]

The pilot's emergency call to tower states #4 engine problem, and a ground witness already said smoke & flame from R/H engine closest to fuselage (#3 engine),
That appears he had a double engine failure on right side.
I think I spotted 2 feathered engines from the debris video.
He may or may not been able to make the runway on #1 & #2 alone, but he did make turns to align with runway, he had some amount of decent enough control
I'm still betting on bad fuel, and he lost 1 or 2 or both, and came up short.
How would anybody know where his fuel selection was at takeoff, ? then determine whether or not he was on cross feed to a bad fuel tank?

Some stuff seems like it might be falling together and it does explain the #3 and #4 engine confusion and also explains other eye witnesses stated the plane was listing drastically sometimes,,, if two were lost on one side it would almost conclude the effect part of the cause but not the cause itself,,,

I wonder if their popping plugs out and getting a reading from a lab at the last layer of carbon on them and if it's normal for the type of fuel the plane should run,,, if the fuel got shut down somehow I wonder if labs are good enough to know when an engine goes full lean at it's last efforts before petering out --- I also wonder if they would know what water mixing into fuel would do and if it left trace --- if so --- as a mechanic it's where my heads at and id be popping plugs and getting them analyzed...

[danlb]

Re fuel loading.

When I flew in the Nine-0-Nine they fueled it up early in the day. I did not see it refueled during the several hours that I was there and there were many flights while I was there. They take reservations months in advance so they have should have some idea how many flights they will be making each day.

Dan

[wierdscience]

There apears to be enough material to do a good investigation with little guesswork. The aircraft would not have been loaded with much fuel. They carried enough for a many hour flight when in service, carrying a payload and about 10 persons. The fuel carried for these flights would not have approached that.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=19vJ27Q5WSg

News reporter during the Q&A "are the break away poles designed to break away?"

[J Tiers]

......
How would anybody know where his fuel selection was at takeoff, ? then determine whether or not he was on cross feed to a bad fuel tank?

There should be fuel left in some of the float chambers..... which are pretty good size and on the back of the engine. At least ome of the engines are not that cooked. And even the well scorched ones may have fuel left.

[Ringo]

The pilot's emergency call to tower states #4 engine problem, and a ground witness already said smoke & flame from R/H engine closest to fuselage (#3 engine),
That appears he had a double engine failure on right side.
I think I spotted 2 feathered engines from the debris video.
He may or may not been able to make the runway on #1 & #2 alone, but he did make turns to align with runway, he had some amount of decent enough control
I'm still betting on bad fuel, and he lost 1 or 2 or both, and came up short.
How would anybody know where his fuel selection was at takeoff, ? then determine whether or not he was on cross feed to a bad fuel tank?

[wierdscience]

at 1:03 and 2:02, they walk by that what you say is a engine, don't look a engine to me though, too vague.
But at 4:15 look between the mangled truck and left empennage, there is a prop tip sticking out, looks like a engine under the debris

the engine on top of the tank and the one in corner of building are both apparently feathered. 2 engines feathered??

Last acts of desperate men? 2 engines feathered could mean max asymetric power at best, or hoping like hell it's a glider at worst.