Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

OT: Sad day in aviation: Collings B17 has crashed

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Ringo
    replied
    at 1:03 and 2:02, they walk by that what you say is a engine, don't look a engine to me though, too vague.
    But at 4:15 look between the mangled truck and left empennage, there is a prop tip sticking out, looks like a engine under the debris

    the engine on top of the tank and the one in corner of building are both apparently feathered. 2 engines feathered??

    Leave a comment:


  • wierdscience
    replied
    Originally posted by wierdscience View Post
    There was one engine on top the deice tank, another laying on the ground at the head of that same tank. Looking at the aerial view in the video you posted, it looks like the plane impacted the deice tank and then the right wing sheared off and went in between the metal building and the fabric hut next to it. Looks to me like the engine in the side of the building would be the nacelle closest the wing root and maybe the 4th engine is further up between the two structures?
    Edit: I take that back, at 4:10 if you look close you can make out the outline of the right wing,the landing gear(near the loop of yellow hose),the front of the metal building and about 8 feet in front of the building is the missing engine.So the inboard engine is laying on the ground in front of the building and the other is the one in the building.

    B-Roll of NTSB investigators at Bradley International Airport in Connecticut surveying the scene of a B-17 that crashed on 10/2/19.Video: NTSB

    Leave a comment:


  • J Tiers
    replied
    It hit 1000 feet short, and may have veered off into the deice facility, per the NTSB press conference.

    There was also a comment that it was observed to come in right wing low, which is consistent with at least one engine out. There is a lift component to the propeller slipstream, which is obviously missing with an engine out.

    Leave a comment:


  • wierdscience
    replied
    Originally posted by Ringo View Post
    where is the other 2 engines in that video?
    where they thrown far away from the tanks?
    Also notice the engine on top of the tank,, it looks like it was feathered too, with one blade folded over the cylinders, another blade looks feathered lying on top of tank.
    There was one engine on top the deice tank, another laying on the ground at the head of that same tank. Looking at the aerial view in the video you posted, it looks like the plane impacted the deice tank and then the right wing sheared off and went in between the metal building and the fabric hut next to it. Looks to me like the engine in the side of the building would be the nacelle closest the wing root and maybe the 4th engine is further up between the two structures?

    Leave a comment:


  • J Tiers
    replied
    Refer to post 91.... they have all the engines, and at least portions of both wings and the tail.

    Leave a comment:


  • danlb
    replied
    At 1 minute into the video it shows two investigators looking at an engine that has come to rest inside the wall of the corrugated metal building. That brings us up to 3 engines???

    Dan

    Leave a comment:


  • Ringo
    replied
    where is the other 2 engines in that video?
    where they thrown far away from the tanks?
    Also notice the engine on top of the tank,, it looks like it was feathered too, with one blade folded over the cylinders, another blade looks feathered lying on top of tank.

    Leave a comment:


  • J Tiers
    replied
    This video of NTSB initial information states that the NTSB has at least portions of both wings, all engines, the tail, and other pieces. That suggests that they have good fuel samples. Even burnt fuel samples would be able to be analyzed to determine if the signature is consistent with the appropriate fuel, or if other material was present.

    I noted in your link that there were unburnt pieces, including a tire on its mounting with a portion of the landing gear, etc. The engine in the hut appeared not to be badly fire-damaged, as the data plate was present and readable without soot, etc.

    There apears to be enough material to do a good investigation with little guesswork. The aircraft would not have been loaded with much fuel. They carried enough for a many hour flight when in service, carrying a payload and about 10 persons. The fuel carried for these flights would not have approached that.

    WINDSOR LOCKS, Conn. (WWLP) - The National Transportation Safety Board to provide an update following B-17 crash.
    Last edited by J Tiers; 10-08-2019, 12:20 PM.

    Leave a comment:


  • Ringo
    replied
    here is some video of the site. i can only see 2 engines in the remains. 1 engine is feathered, 1 on top of the deice tank. where is the other 2?
    the right wing is consumed in the fire, only ash remnants of the spars lying between the canvas quanset hut and metal building.
    looking at the ash remains of right wing, is anyone saying they got post fuel samples from that?

    B-Roll of NTSB investigators at Bradley International Airport in Connecticut surveying the scene of a B-17 that crashed on 10/2/19.Video: NTSB

    Leave a comment:


  • J Tiers
    replied
    Originally posted by RB211 View Post
    One of my colleagues says JetA burns with black smoke, 100LL burns with grey smoke...
    Makes sense, it has longer chain molecules, and they might not fully react in open burning. Gasoline is shorter chain molecules and probably burns more completely.

    However, in an actual fire, there are other materials burning, and they may contribute smoke of a different color to the fuel load. Cloth, plastics, wiring insulation, rubber, etc, etc.

    Leave a comment:


  • Optics Curmudgeon
    replied
    Be patient, real information might be coming sooner than you would think. The flight engineer survived the crash.

    Leave a comment:


  • RB211
    replied
    One of my colleagues says JetA burns with black smoke, 100LL burns with grey smoke...

    Leave a comment:


  • J Tiers
    replied
    Originally posted by RB211 View Post
    Depends on the airplane, props windmilling, or seized and not feathered can be a significant source of drag. A friend of mine that flew Saab 340's said that it would bring his airplane down if he couldn't feather. 12,000 lbs of drag on one wing.
    With it way out on one wing, the yaw force if not feathered would be a factor, not sure the reports support that.

    Preliminary reports do not support JetA in the fuelbased on checks of the fuel that remained, but the A/C does have a number of fuel tanks, and fuel might have been contaminated in one and not others, if just one was topped up before flight. it does not seem to take much JetA to really make the fuel foul up. JetA has no octane rating.

    It may take only a minute or so of heavy knocking to destroy an engine. Power problems on multiple engines suggest a common factor, and fuel is a logical one.

    .

    Leave a comment:


  • A.K. Boomer
    replied
    The torsional effects that a running engine exerts on an air frame is something else to consider when losing an engine so close to ground and not having the blades immediately feather, and the abruptness at which the engine fails is part of that equation,,, having an engine that goes from positive torsion to immense negative and having it do it "on a dime" would definitely take some immediate leveling adjustments, the positioning of the failing engine on the wing is a factor also as in inboard or more outboard...

    I don't think this was the particular issue here as it sounds like they had stabilized their flight but just came up short - just some food for thought...

    Leave a comment:


  • A.K. Boomer
    replied
    Originally posted by PStechPaul View Post
    Black smoke sounds like it may have thrown a rod through a piston and it was burning oil. Could the engines have lost lubrication and started to seize? Is there a common oil system that could have failed?
    Black is fuel - blue is oil - white is coolant (which it does not have)

    all these planes DO leave a black trail when in rate of climb for two reasons, first off the plane is consuming lots of extra rich fuel mixture and due to the relatively low speed when climbing out they will leave a trail, I do not know the details - was he just seeing this or an immense amount from just one engine... ???

    There is no common oil system that they all share - that would be making the craft very vulnerable --- one of the main strengths of a plane like this is to keep all systems separate --- hard to do with fuel in some cases though...


    Would a weening in of Jet fuel into the mixture as it was climbing out create allot of black smoke ? absolutely - even water in the fuel might due to incomplete combustion and it just dumping raw fuel into the header system...
    Last edited by A.K. Boomer; 10-07-2019, 10:02 AM.

    Leave a comment:

Working...
X