OT: Sad day in aviation: Collings B17 has crashed

[J Tiers]

This video of NTSB initial information states that the NTSB has at least portions of both wings, all engines, the tail, and other pieces. That suggests that they have good fuel samples. Even burnt fuel samples would be able to be analyzed to determine if the signature is consistent with the appropriate fuel, or if other material was present.

I noted in your link that there were unburnt pieces, including a tire on its mounting with a portion of the landing gear, etc. The engine in the hut appeared not to be badly fire-damaged, as the data plate was present and readable without soot, etc.

There apears to be enough material to do a good investigation with little guesswork. The aircraft would not have been loaded with much fuel. They carried enough for a many hour flight when in service, carrying a payload and about 10 persons. The fuel carried for these flights would not have approached that.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=19vJ27Q5WSg

[Ringo]

where is the other 2 engines in that video?
where they thrown far away from the tanks?
Also notice the engine on top of the tank,, it looks like it was feathered too, with one blade folded over the cylinders, another blade looks feathered lying on top of tank.

[danlb]

At 1 minute into the video it shows two investigators looking at an engine that has come to rest inside the wall of the corrugated metal building. That brings us up to 3 engines???

Dan

[J Tiers]

Refer to post 91.... they have all the engines, and at least portions of both wings and the tail.

[wierdscience]

where is the other 2 engines in that video?
where they thrown far away from the tanks?
Also notice the engine on top of the tank,, it looks like it was feathered too, with one blade folded over the cylinders, another blade looks feathered lying on top of tank.

There was one engine on top the deice tank, another laying on the ground at the head of that same tank. Looking at the aerial view in the video you posted, it looks like the plane impacted the deice tank and then the right wing sheared off and went in between the metal building and the fabric hut next to it. Looks to me like the engine in the side of the building would be the nacelle closest the wing root and maybe the 4th engine is further up between the two structures?

[J Tiers]

It hit 1000 feet short, and may have veered off into the deice facility, per the NTSB press conference.

There was also a comment that it was observed to come in right wing low, which is consistent with at least one engine out. There is a lift component to the propeller slipstream, which is obviously missing with an engine out.

[wierdscience]

There was one engine on top the deice tank, another laying on the ground at the head of that same tank. Looking at the aerial view in the video you posted, it looks like the plane impacted the deice tank and then the right wing sheared off and went in between the metal building and the fabric hut next to it. Looks to me like the engine in the side of the building would be the nacelle closest the wing root and maybe the 4th engine is further up between the two structures?

Edit: I take that back, at 4:10 if you look close you can make out the outline of the right wing,the landing gear(near the loop of yellow hose),the front of the metal building and about 8 feet in front of the building is the missing engine.So the inboard engine is laying on the ground in front of the building and the other is the one in the building.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DIjWv0lcLz0

[Ringo]

at 1:03 and 2:02, they walk by that what you say is a engine, don't look a engine to me though, too vague.
But at 4:15 look between the mangled truck and left empennage, there is a prop tip sticking out, looks like a engine under the debris

the engine on top of the tank and the one in corner of building are both apparently feathered. 2 engines feathered??

[wierdscience]

at 1:03 and 2:02, they walk by that what you say is a engine, don't look a engine to me though, too vague.
But at 4:15 look between the mangled truck and left empennage, there is a prop tip sticking out, looks like a engine under the debris

the engine on top of the tank and the one in corner of building are both apparently feathered. 2 engines feathered??

Last acts of desperate men? 2 engines feathered could mean max asymetric power at best, or hoping like hell it's a glider at worst.

[Ringo]

The pilot's emergency call to tower states #4 engine problem, and a ground witness already said smoke & flame from R/H engine closest to fuselage (#3 engine),
That appears he had a double engine failure on right side.
I think I spotted 2 feathered engines from the debris video.
He may or may not been able to make the runway on #1 & #2 alone, but he did make turns to align with runway, he had some amount of decent enough control
I'm still betting on bad fuel, and he lost 1 or 2 or both, and came up short.
How would anybody know where his fuel selection was at takeoff, ? then determine whether or not he was on cross feed to a bad fuel tank?

[J Tiers]

......
How would anybody know where his fuel selection was at takeoff, ? then determine whether or not he was on cross feed to a bad fuel tank?

There should be fuel left in some of the float chambers..... which are pretty good size and on the back of the engine. At least ome of the engines are not that cooked. And even the well scorched ones may have fuel left.

[wierdscience]

There apears to be enough material to do a good investigation with little guesswork. The aircraft would not have been loaded with much fuel. They carried enough for a many hour flight when in service, carrying a payload and about 10 persons. The fuel carried for these flights would not have approached that.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=19vJ27Q5WSg

News reporter during the Q&A "are the break away poles designed to break away?"

[danlb]

Re fuel loading.

When I flew in the Nine-0-Nine they fueled it up early in the day. I did not see it refueled during the several hours that I was there and there were many flights while I was there. They take reservations months in advance so they have should have some idea how many flights they will be making each day.

Dan

[A.K. Boomer]

The pilot's emergency call to tower states #4 engine problem, and a ground witness already said smoke & flame from R/H engine closest to fuselage (#3 engine),
That appears he had a double engine failure on right side.
I think I spotted 2 feathered engines from the debris video.
He may or may not been able to make the runway on #1 & #2 alone, but he did make turns to align with runway, he had some amount of decent enough control
I'm still betting on bad fuel, and he lost 1 or 2 or both, and came up short.
How would anybody know where his fuel selection was at takeoff, ? then determine whether or not he was on cross feed to a bad fuel tank?

Some stuff seems like it might be falling together and it does explain the #3 and #4 engine confusion and also explains other eye witnesses stated the plane was listing drastically sometimes,,, if two were lost on one side it would almost conclude the effect part of the cause but not the cause itself,,,

I wonder if their popping plugs out and getting a reading from a lab at the last layer of carbon on them and if it's normal for the type of fuel the plane should run,,, if the fuel got shut down somehow I wonder if labs are good enough to know when an engine goes full lean at it's last efforts before petering out --- I also wonder if they would know what water mixing into fuel would do and if it left trace --- if so --- as a mechanic it's where my heads at and id be popping plugs and getting them analyzed...

[Ringo]

First thing I want to do is inventory count the fuel farm.
Did they write a receipt for XXX gallons Jet fuel to that aircraft?
Did the fuel farm do a daily check to see how much fuel was sold on a receipts vs what they got in the ground vs whats in the trucks?
Does it all jive?