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OT: Sad day in aviation: Collings B17 has crashed

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  • 100LL loves to suck in moisture, especially if the tanks aren't full. Always had water in the fuel every time I flew a bug smasher in Florida. I'd find it very peculiar if they forgot to sump the drains. You have four engines which each cylinder has two spark plugs, and two separate magnetos per engine. I don't know the fuel system on the B17, nor any of the procedures for one, but the likelihood of multiple engine failures, at the engines is too remote to even consider. ( contaminated fuel however would be one of the most likely scenarios, but ruled out already?) Was maintenance done on the thrust quadrant? Were cables undone and not properly re-secured?
    I only think of that because I flew with some one that crashed because of the throttle cables becoming undone in the quadrant Both engines went to idle after takeoff. He survived and has a stainless steel tube in his throat where the clip board became lodged. Gives him an interesting accent.
    Last edited by RB211; 10-09-2019, 02:43 PM.

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    • Originally posted by RB211 View Post
      Was maintenance done on the thrust quadrant? Were cables undone and not properly re-secured?
      I only think of that because I flew with some one that crashed because of the throttle cables becoming undone in the quadrant Both engines went to idle after takeoff.
      I don't know much about planes but do think I know what your talking about and it's right in line with proper thinking as a single master control that is linked to all 4 engines,,, in theory it's as logical as looking at the fuel source and depending on the tank feed layout perhaps more so....

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      • Originally posted by RB211 View Post
        100LL loves to suck in moisture, especially if the tanks aren't full. Always had water in the fuel every time I flew a bug smasher in Florida. I'd find it very peculiar if they forgot to sump the drains. You have four engines which each cylinder has two spark plugs, and two separate magnetos per engine. I don't know the fuel system on the B17, nor any of the procedures for one, but the likelihood of multiple engine failures, at the engines is too remote to even consider. ( contaminated fuel however would be one of the most likely scenarios, but ruled out already?) Was maintenance done on the thrust quadrant? Were cables undone and not properly re-secured?
        I only think of that because I flew with some one that crashed because of the throttle cables becoming undone in the quadrant Both engines went to idle after takeoff. He survived and has a stainless steel tube in his throat where the clip board became lodged. Gives him an interesting accent.
        Correct me if I am wrong, but, the aircraft was on its way returning to home FROM a tour, not, departing FOR a tour. Therefore maintenance issues and theories are somewhat diluted.
        As an A&P, (not a pilot) I'm not seeing anything here that remotely suggests maintenance as the issue.
        I can only remotely imagine 2 things that would cause a good pilot to feather #3 & #4 engine-at low gross weight-and come up short to approach-AFTER-he was aligned with runway:
        Bad fuel (gas truck), or, somebody shut off fuel in the cockpit (pilot error)

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        • Originally posted by A.K. Boomer View Post
          I don't know much about planes but do think I know what your talking about and it's right in line with proper thinking as a single master control that is linked to all 4 engines,,, in theory it's as logical as looking at the fuel source and depending on the tank feed layout perhaps more so....
          there is no single control common to all 4 engines.
          aircraft are not designed this way, nor, certificated this way, never has been, and still not today.
          I am able to speak for this as a mech on the old school stuff as well as the new fly-by-wire stuff.
          This incident just plain smells of fuel contamination...............just sayin'

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          • Originally posted by Ringo View Post
            there is no single control common to all 4 engines.
            aircraft are not designed this way, nor, certificated this way, never has been, and still not today.
            I am able to speak for this as a mech on the old school stuff as well as the new fly-by-wire stuff.
            This incident just plain smells of fuel contamination...............just sayin'
            It would be the most likely scenario. I doubt they shut the fuel off by accident and not catch the mistake during a procedure. However, depending on the culture at an organization, such a thing may not be far fetched. Places with a "cowboy" mentality are far more susceptible to that than say a heavy CRM 121 airline culture. I have no idea what the culture is like at Collings. All of this should come out in the NTSB report which will probably take a year. Still waiting on the Atlas 767 Houston crash that my friend died in.

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            • Cockpit picture. Presumably the 4 large levers are throttle, and the smaller ones forward of that are the mixture controls.

              https://shootaviation.com/sets-and-m...1079-gallery-2
              CNC machines only go through the motions

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              • Funny you to mention the 'cowboy' attitude.
                I've seen cowboy pilots get lightning strikes, turbulence inspections, hard landings inspections, et. al.,
                BUT, I've not seen a cowboy pilot 'crash & burn' in a heap.
                Just sayin'........30years A&P

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                • Originally posted by Ringo View Post
                  Funny you to mention the 'cowboy' attitude.
                  I've seen cowboy pilots get lightning strikes, turbulence inspections, hard landings inspections, et. al.,
                  BUT, I've not seen a cowboy pilot 'crash & burn' in a heap.
                  Just sayin'........30years A&P
                  You've never seen the B52 crash at the airshow? The Florida Jet 737-200 crash into the icy waters on takeoff, or countless other crashes where CRM wasn't followed due to cowboy attitudes?

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                  • On August 31, 1988, I was flying into DFW, and we could see smoke and wreckage on the ground as we were landing. After landing, we learned that a plane had crashed on take-off, and it was determined that the crew had been joking around and had neglected to properly configure the aircraft for take-off. Also a critical alarm was non functional, not checked by maintenance.

                    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delta_...es_Flight_1141

                    https://www.dallasnews.com/photos/20...port-kills-14/

                    http://pauleschoen.com/pix/PM08_P76_P54.png
                    Paul , P S Technology, Inc. and MrTibbs
                    USA Maryland 21030

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                    • Originally posted by RB211 View Post
                      You've never seen the B52 crash at the airshow? The Florida Jet 737-200 crash into the icy waters on takeoff, or countless other crashes where CRM wasn't followed due to cowboy attitudes?
                      I remember a turboprop crash years ago where the final report showed the pilot intentionally put the engines into beta/ reverse thrust position before touchdown. Apparently not the first time either.


                      https://apnews.com/11e40928395518d4ebb7b34dd67ea209
                      Last edited by Sparky_NY; 10-10-2019, 07:00 AM. Reason: found link to story

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                      • Originally posted by Sparky_NY View Post
                        I remember a turboprop crash years ago where the final report showed the pilot intentionally put the engines into beta/ reverse thrust position before touchdown. Apparently not the first time either.


                        https://apnews.com/11e40928395518d4ebb7b34dd67ea209
                        There are two points in aviation history where fatalities had a significant drop. The wide scale adoption of gas turbine engines, and the second, adoption of Crew Resource Management.

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                        • Originally posted by RB211 View Post
                          There are two points in aviation history where fatalities had a significant drop. The wide scale adoption of gas turbine engines, and the second, adoption of Crew Resource Management.
                          I am sure that is very true, my point was the existence of a few cowboys out there.

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                          • Originally posted by Sparky_NY View Post
                            I am sure that is very true, my point was the existence of a few cowboys out there.
                            CRM removed the cowboys from the cockpit at 121 airlines

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                            • I think there are still a few oddities around. That Canadian deal where the crew landed at the wrong place, and some "removed for being drunk" etc. They end up removing themselves, but hopefully just themselves.

                              What were the means by which CRM has removed "cowboys" , and hopefully also "idiots"?
                              CNC machines only go through the motions

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                              • I just looked the NTSB site video for the first time. That Quonset hut was actually a tent and the metal building to the left was put up while I was working there to house vacuum evaporators that concentrated up the Glycol to about 50% from the 10% or so that we produced in the tent. You can see the equipment I installed through the big hole. In the center is an ultrafiltration unit and behind it you can see the large white tubes of the 2 stage RO unit. Glad I was NOT there for this!

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