OT: Sad day in aviation: Collings B17 has crashed

[RB211]

I think there are still a few oddities around. That Canadian deal where the crew landed at the wrong place, and some "removed for being drunk" etc. They end up removing themselves, but hopefully just themselves.

What were the means by which CRM has removed "cowboys" , and hopefully also "idiots"?

Well, the FAA mandated the CRM training, and consisted at first of recording the crew on video interacting. This allowed the instructors to discuss with the pilots how they interact with each other. Turns out, most pilots come across as something completely different than what they think they do. Instructor tells the the Captain that he was a total asshole. Captain doesn't believe it, is shown the video, and is shocked. Captain learns that he shuts down all crew interaction with his poor attitude. Captain goes back on the line, first officers report him for being a dick, he gets called in to do a carpet dance. Sometimes a good yelling, sometimes remedial training, sometimes a downgrade to first officer. Repeat offenders often get fired.
CRM creates a culture where such behavior is not tolerated, no longer is the Captain Atilla the Hun. He may still be God, as long as he is respectful and allows for full crew input, interaction.
It truly is a culture, and dicks aren't tolerated.
As for the idiots or bad pilots... I am currently at my yearly recurrent training in the simulator getting my ass kicked. Luckily I can fly the airplane even if I screw up the procedures, the safety of flight isn't in question. My company respects good sticks, but it is a good thing, allows me to get back up to speed on the procedures for things we don't see 99% of the time. If I screw up, I go into a program and do the sim every 6 months. If I rack up three failures on checking events, they can fire me. Recurrent training is stressful as you are performing to keep your career.
Guys who really screw up on the line and have a bad attitude about it are often fired immediately.
Pilots who have a substance abuse issue and self report it before getting in trouble can go into the HIMS program which is a program that will save their career. If you get in trouble before self disclosing, you're usually done.
Most flights I do, there's three other pilots, and you better believe we are judging each others actions and catching errors before they develop into problems.

TLR CRM = No dicks in the cockpit, procedures strictly followed, entire flight crew works as a team, Atilla the Huns are fired/downgraded/etc.

[tomato coupe]

Well, the FAA mandated the CRM training, and consisted at first of recording the crew on video interacting. This allowed the instructors to discuss with the pilots how they interact with each other. Turns out, most pilots come across as something completely different than what they think they do. Instructor tells the the Captain that he was a total asshole. Captain doesn't believe it, is shown the video, and is shocked. Captain learns that he shuts down all crew interaction with his poor attitude. Captain goes back on the line, first officers report him for being a dick, he gets called in to do a carpet dance. Sometimes a good yelling, sometimes remedial training, sometimes a downgrade to first officer. Repeat offenders often get fired.
CRM creates a culture where such behavior is not tolerated, no longer is the Captain Atilla the Hun. He may still be God, as long as he is respectful and allows for full crew input, interaction.
It truly is a culture, and dicks aren't tolerated.
As for the idiots or bad pilots... I am currently at my yearly recurrent training in the simulator getting my ass kicked. Luckily I can fly the airplane even if I screw up the procedures, the safety of flight isn't in question. My company respects good sticks, but it is a good thing, allows me to get back up to speed on the procedures for things we don't see 99% of the time. If I screw up, I go into a program and do the sim every 6 months. If I rack up three failures on checking events, they can fire me. Recurrent training is stressful as you are performing to keep your career.
Guys who really screw up on the line and have a bad attitude about it are often fired immediately.
Pilots who have a substance abuse issue and self report it before getting in trouble can go into the HIMS program which is a program that will save their career. If you get in trouble before self disclosing, you're usually done.
Most flights I do, there's three other pilots, and you better believe we are judging each others actions and catching errors before they develop into problems.

TLR CRM = No dicks in the cockpit, procedures strictly followed, entire flight crew works as a team, Atilla the Huns are fired/downgraded/etc.

What's a cowboy in this context?

[J Tiers]

Seems good, a bit draconian, but that is probably totally justified given the responsibilities.

Seems that it might not apply in this case, as these guys seem to have been flying together a fair time. That usually rubs off the sharp edges, working together in a volunteer situation.

[A.K. Boomer]

What's a cowboy in this context?

https://youtu.be/fgY3myrJUEw

[danlb]

A cowboy is a risk taker??? My brother is a cowboy private pilot. The scariest words you never want to hear are often uttered after you land.

"I should have gone around, but thought I could make it, and I was right!"

[RB211]

Perhaps there is confusion to the term Cow Boy in aviation.
Some one who doesn't follow procedures, does their own thing, won't listen to crew, shuts down all CRM, takes unnecessary risks, and is often impossible to teach. Such people these days are weeded out of the airlines in a blink of an eye.
They usually find a place in corporate aviation, are the dicks that will never let the FO fly, and convince the bosses that he is irreplaceable. Meanwhile the FO goes elsewhere, gets on with South West, and adds the CA to the no hire list, and the CA wonders why South West will never call him even after paying for a 737 type rating.
Yes, there is a ton of that going on too. Always be nice to everyone.

[Ringo]

I referred to cowboy pilots as the (cargo freighter) guys that fly through weather instead of around it. then they say 'look how much fuel i saved"
same type guys get lightning strikes then deny they went through weather, they get cargo scattered over the cabin then deny they went through turbulance (weather),
they do a route faster then other pilots, then deny they are the one that burnt up the engines.......
they dont crash & burn, but they are really hard on equipment., and expensive

[RB211]

OT: Sad day in aviation: Collings B17 has crashed

I referred to cowboy pilots as the (cargo freighter) guys that fly through weather instead of around it. then they say 'look how much fuel i saved"
same type guys get lightning strikes then deny they went through weather, they get cargo scattered over the cabin then deny they went through turbulance (weather),
they do a route faster then other pilots, then deny they are the one that burnt up the engines.......
they dont crash & burn, but they are really hard on equipment., and expensive

They are the same guys that don't report a prop strike, then down the road end up trying to kill my friend or I when the crankshaft snaps and the single engine airplane at night over the mountains is all of a sudden a glider...

[George Bulliss]

They are the same guys that don't report a prop strike, then down the road end up trying my friend or I when the crankshaft snaps and the single engine airplane at night over the mountains is all of a sudden a glider...

Speaking of prop strikes, a guy I used to fly with on occasion who was definitely a "cowboy" I had a few scary flights with him delivering checks. I wasn't with him, but one night when landing in GRR he heard the props hitting the runway (Baron). Since it was late at night and the tower was closed, he gave it full power and went around without telling anyone; this time remembering to put the gear down. Got it hidden in the hanger before anyone knew.

The next day the company flew down some replacement props and the plane headed out. The damaged props had an 8" bend in them and I'm guessing the runway had some scars. The company praised him for managing to save the plane and hide it all from the FAA. This was about the time I started reconsidering my future with this company...

I heard a few years back that the cowboy is still flying, but is now driving a Gulfstream, which is really scary.

[Ringo]

The NTSB was supposed to issue a preliminary report end of this week,
anybody seen it??

[J Tiers]

Nothing yet at the NTSB site.

[RB211]

Speaking of prop strikes, a guy I used to fly with on occasion who was definitely a "cowboy" I had a few scary flights with him delivering checks. I wasn't with him, but one night when landing in GRR he heard the props hitting the runway (Baron). Since it was late at night and the tower was closed, he gave it full power and went around without telling anyone; this time remembering to put the gear down. Got it hidden in the hanger before anyone knew.

The next day the company flew down some replacement props and the plane headed out. The damaged props had an 8" bend in them and I'm guessing the runway had some scars. The company praised him for managing to save the plane and hide it all from the FAA. This was about the time I started reconsidering my future with this company...

I heard a few years back that the cowboy is still flying, but is now driving a Gulfstream, which is really scary.

Yep... Corporate...

[Doc Nickel]

Friend of the family was a retired, moneyed sort, and took up aviation as a pastime. He was very experienced, had a lot of time in puddle jumpers, decided to upgrade to... I dunno what, some small plane that actually had retractable landing gear.

Flew (commercial) to the states from Alaska, picked up the plane and started hopping it home. Made it successfully through the US and was crossing Canada when he landed, having forgotten to put the gear down.

Had to replace the prop, have the crank x-rayed, etc. and of course the engine rebuilt and recertified.

Took off, made the rest of the flight, landed in Anchorage... and again forgot to put the landing gear down.

Doc.

[RB211]

Friend of the family was a retired, moneyed sort, and took up aviation as a pastime. He was very experienced, had a lot of time in puddle jumpers, decided to upgrade to... I dunno what, some small plane that actually had retractable landing gear.

Flew (commercial) to the states from Alaska, picked up the plane and started hopping it home. Made it successfully through the US and was crossing Canada when he landed, having forgotten to put the gear down.

Had to replace the prop, have the crank x-rayed, etc. and of course the engine rebuilt and recertified.

Took off, made the rest of the flight, landed in Anchorage... and again forgot to put the landing gear down.

Doc.

They say the smoothest landing you'll ever make is with the gear up. Did the FAA not go after his ratings?

[Dave C]

They say the smoothest landing you'll ever make is with the gear up. Did the FAA not go after his ratings?

40 years ago put a Cessna 310 down on the grass when the gear failed to lock down. Smooth as silk, just like riding on skis.