Sharing and evolution.

[sandman2234]

Have you considered moving the center of gravity on your "bridgy" to the center of the base, instead of using the shaper attachment hole? Extend the 4 bolts, add a plate, with center pin and attach your bridgy crane.
Just a idea I used since I had a shaping head sitting in that spot.

David from jax

[John Stevenson]

Sharing and evolution.

Prompted by the post by Kap in the genius thread.

Most designs get better by evolution [ Ford excepted ]
It's far easier to take someone else's idea and run with it to make it better. The original designer is always looking at the overall picture whereas the user is looker at a far smaller picture and asking himself [ or in Alistair's case - herself ] what can I use this for and finishes up with a similar design but more practical to that user.
Other users might not want that option but a different one.
If we share then we have a far better understanding of the various designs out there.

When I built my first cathead steady, and I'm *STILL* miffed that someone invented this 20 years before I was even born, I had to hold some rectangular bar so I put 4 holes in for the grip screws at 90 degrees.
Later on I realised that if I put two more in from one existing screw at 120 degrees I could hold hex bar as well.
Two additional holes made this into the MKII design - evolution.

Today I had to machine a large armature from a DC electric motor, this was about 14" diameter and two foot long and probably weighed the best end of 600 pounds.
Because my workshop is very cramped I can't get a crane to the big lathe. A gantry is out of the question due to other machines being in the way.
For some while I've been promising myself a move and resite the lights so I can get a beam in to lift on but it's not going to happen that quickly.

I have to use a pump up sack truck that's a cross between a sack truck and a pedestrian fork truck. Because it holds the rotors at 90 degrees to the bed I have to be very careful when loading, one slip and I could be in trouble.
I managed today with the usual struggle but then as I was taking it out I hit on an idea to load these quickly and safely.

Once I get something worked out I'll post pictures. Now my setup is probably unique to me and someone seeing the pics will think "so what" but it's not the pics, - it's the idea.
This setup will have quite a few different uses and could be applied to a mill as well as a lathe. None of us are getting younger, IBEW just chases younger birds , and as we get older things like lifting a vise or dividing head can prove taxing.

At this point in time it's unique to me, when published no doubt many will truthfully say "I've got one of those"
If so POST THE PICS NOW and save me having to re-invent the wheel

John S.

[WJHartson]

John, I agree that sharing ideas will always make things better. Two heads are better than one. To save you some time I am posting picture of the idea so you can improve on it.



Couldn't resist.

Would like to see your idea for moving heavy items onto the machines. Think I a going to have to put some of my accessories on a diet as they keep gaining weight. Age has nothing to do with it.

Joe

[NAMPeters]

John, dancing across the stage behind balloons and fans, throws us another teaser. Next we will have Alistair up there in his kilt wishing for a breeze.

------------------
Neil Peters

[Forrest Addy]

Big armatures in machines having no crane service, roll it up a ramp, crib and rock, strong arm it.

I was busted by the boss on graveyard for lifting a heavy armature up into a cylindrical grinder when the crane operator was out of the shop. It was plenty heavy but I was young and strong and stupid. I had pallets of armatures sitting around some ready for shipping. One of then was a big honker weighing maybe 400 lb which I handled with the forlift using an illegal rig.

Mike took this off to the shipping station and I never thought a thing about it. He stopped at the scale to weight the armature and passed the word to the gossips I was lifting 400 lb stuff and putting it between centers. It was a lie but it was also free glory. I denied it and people assumed it was modesty or concern for safety violations. I just never corrected the story.

Heh heh.

In the absense of suitable lifting gear, ramps and cribbing work good for getting heavy stuff up to a height and a couple of modified thrift shop scissor jacks (tack weld "V"'s on them) to support the work into the centers.

[Tony]

john,
re: genius post. My apologies for thanking you, i'll try not to let it happen again.

re: lifting.. have you thought about a small jib crane? i dont do much heavy work, and i get local muscle to help when i do, but have always thought about a small jib crane somewhere behind the lathe, down by the tail.

if you search the net for pictures, you'll see some pretty beefy designs for even 1/2 ton hoists. but if you could also anchor the column to the ceiling (instead of just the floor) and you reduce the boom length just enough to get over the bed, one could design a safe, light jib crane. as long as you can get your work to the lathe, the jib crane could load it up. a 1/2 ton winch on a trolley would give you +/- a meter or so of freedom without getting too large.

-tony

NB: i am not the inventor of the jib crane.

[Carl]

Quoting Forrest:


"I was busted by the boss on graveyard for lifting a heavy armature up into a cylindrical grinder when the crane operator was out of the shop. It was plenty heavy but I was young and strong and stupid. I had pallets of armatures sitting around some ready for shipping. One of then was a big honker weighing maybe 400 lb which I handled with the forlift using an illegal rig.

Mike took this off to the shipping station and I never thought a thing about it. He stopped at the scale to weight the armature and passed the word to the gossips I was lifting 400 lb stuff and putting it between centers. It was a lie but it was also free glory. I denied it and people assumed it was modesty or concern for safety violations. I just never corrected the story.

Heh heh."







[This message has been edited by Carl (edited 09-30-2004).]

[John Stevenson]

My problem is lack of space.






There is very little room between that Bridgy and the lathe, about 30".
A ramp is out of the picture due to this lack of space.
The ceiling is not that high and definitly not load bearing.
I can support one end of a beam on the wall behind the lathe but not the other end.
At the moment I do use a couple of sissor jacks to lift up to centre hight once it's on the bed.

My idea was to build a trolley that could take the rotor or whatever and be pushed into position.
A detachable upright would be fitted to a socket on one side of the trolley and this would support a beam whose other end was supported on the wall or even onto the ram of a machine such as a Bridgy.



The load would then be lifted with a set of chain blocks and swung into position.
This setup requires no fixed beams above a machine.

After reading Forrests post about a ramp and my trolley design I realised that even simpler was to build a trolley that is the hight of the lathe bed and using a board that fits over the ways and is pegged to them to prevent it slipping the load can be rolled straight off the trolley directly onto the board and lifted into position with the sissor jacks as at present.
Only drawback to this I can see is that the trolley will be quite hight and require a decent footprint to remain stable.
It can be loaded outside with the forktruck so that isn't a problem.

This takes me up to the MKII, I await the MKIII with baited breath

John S.

PS. Tony, I'm struggling for room for a jib crane, also this machine is nearly 12 foot long so the load is reduced with a reach this big.



[This message has been edited by John Stevenson (edited 09-30-2004).]

[Forrest Addy]

John, I can see one place where you can put two more machine tools if you shove all that other stuff tight together and put duckboards across the top for access.

Seriously, have you ever considered a lifting horse - like a tall saw horse - that just clears the ceiling? Crowded as you are you'd have to very carefully optimize horse to fit the space. If you have wheels going one way and a chain hoist trolley the other you might be able to save your back for more important things - like bellying up to the dinner table.

[JPR]

John,

I would have a concern on building tool in your sketch. When the load is at the end of the beam, you would need significant counter balance. To avoid this problem, an engine hoist runs the legs out past the load.

My suggestion is a monorail and trolley system that is curved to go over each machine. I have seen a similar design on ships. The beam could start at the double doors and make a large sweeping turn over the machine in the back left, then straight to the Bridgeport, then a large u-turn at the end (?) of the shop and back to the lathe. If your heavy stuff is usually go to the lathe, then I would go past the lathe and back to the entrance. Even seen one system that had a large switch so it actually made a figure 6.

Hopefully I described that decently. The system is not as nice as bridge crane, but a lot cheaper since there is only one beam which can be a lot lighter if adequately suppported from above. Also this system works where there are vertical supports or around walls that prevent a bridge system.

I found a picture of a monorail hoist system on a ship from a German company http://www.ship-technology.com/contr...hs/fuchs2.html

Jon

[This message has been edited by JPR (edited 09-30-2004).]

[zl1byz]

What if you mounted the post for the jib crane behind the lathe, kind of middle of the bed. From the floor to the rafters, fix the top end into the rafters. The rafters then would only take side load. If you tied it into 2 or 3 of them should handle a fair bit. Cant tell in the pic if they are steel or timber. The boom would only need to reach across the lathe bed to the floor area. Of course if you could find a space in front of the lathe it could swing 360 and load the bridgy too, but probably not the space for this.

[rollin45]

A small dolley that can lift, keep the center of gravity low while moving to the machine, then jack the load and roll into place. Some outriggers that fit into sockets , various angles to accomodate different machines and clearances to keep the top heaviness under control when loading the onto the machine?
rollin'

[zl1byz]

Hard to judge distances in the picture but if those rafters were good for side load a post in the centre between those 3 machines could serve the lot. You might be laughing though as you know how far apart they are.

[NAMPeters]

Here are my thoughts: hinge the cantilever track beam at the post for storage, set other end of beam on post or suitable wall support when in use and skip the locking casters and rig the dolley so as to abutt the machine and use a strap, like a belt, to tie the dolley to the machine. Hoist on track can also be used to load dolley with a post under the beam. Do not paint green as it may vanish into the ether.

------------------
Neil Peters

[wierdscience]

I built something similar to this out of square tubing for a customer.



It was designed to lift 1,000lb fire proof file cabinets onto the back of a truck.

I used roller chain and a worm gear reducer for the lift,with a handwheel for power.It had arms 36" long and could lift things up and over the apron of the lathe or mill table with ease,just crank it up and roll over.

You could just fit one with a jib and use a sling for the lift.



[This message has been edited by wierdscience (edited 09-30-2004).]