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  • #31
    Originally posted by rcaffin View Post
    Remember: a verbal offer of an NDA is legally binding.
    I think you'll have an up hill battle selling that to anyone that wants an NDA signed. In business they are SOP before confidential information is shared. Signing an NDA is 100% fair ball, if for no other reason to document that its still patentable - i.e. not publicly disclosed.
    in Toronto Ontario - where are you?

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    • #32
      Hi McGyver

      Oh, you may be right. But do I care? I am retired and 'adequately looked after', so it matters not to me one way or another.

      I remember having to prune one NDA for a small client down from 20+ pages of legalese to maybe 15 pages - by just deleting everything which seemed stupid or superfluous. The client shrugged, and signed. He wanted my skills.

      Another NDA was for a very big client - I worked for them for several years, deep in the R&D. The NDA was just 2 paragraphs. I promised to behave as a good consultant, and to keep the company information confidential.

      Cheers
      Roger

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by rcaffin View Post
        I remember having to prune one NDA for a small client down from 20+ pages of legalese to maybe 15 pages
        wow, that's seems brutish, 99% I see are 1.5 -2 pages with the standard array of clauses. I'd have to really want the deal to bother responding to someone sending a 20 page NDA....it forewarns of time wasting unpleasantries to come.
        Last edited by Mcgyver; 12-28-2020, 09:02 AM.
        in Toronto Ontario - where are you?

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        • #34
          When I was consulting I found too many NDAs were written by lawyers who had no idea what their IT department actually did. I was seldom in a position to learn the company strategic plans when designing and installing new firewalls. On top of that they often combined clauses to assign IP rights to the company with such broad wording that one ( from the power company no less ) claimed rights to any creation of mine of any issue regardless of when it was created. Legally, I think they could have claimed ownership of my firstborn male son. Wish they would a few times.

          Dan

          At the end of the project, there is a profound difference between spare parts and left over parts.

          Location: SF East Bay.

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          • #35
            My employer is Assa Abloy.
            So far, I am not impressed
            with what I am seeing here.

            --Doozer
            DZER

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            • #36
              Late again, doozer.

              Comment


              • #37
                Yes, I know I am late to the party, but I just saw on YouTube a new "unpickable" lock that compares itself to and claims superiority to Abloy. The picker was mostly impressed, but showed that maybe you could brute force pick (not break or exploit) the lock given enough time.

                Originally posted by Mcgyver View Post

                I think you'll have an up hill battle selling that to anyone that wants an NDA signed. In business they are SOP before confidential information is shared. Signing an NDA is 100% fair ball, if for no other reason to document that its still patentable - i.e. not publicly disclosed.
                Given the NDAs I've seen its rare I would sign one. In fact in all my years as a contractor I only ever signed two. So far I have not see one I could sign as a machinist. Of the two I did sign one was for a GSA job, and it was amazingly specific without a bunch of stupid greedy clauses that are not actually part of an NDA. The other was similar, but failed to have a morals clause. I wrote one in and told every manager at the table that if they didn't all initial my copy I was walking out. They did and I did the job.

                MOST (99%) of the NDAs people have sent me read like a restriction of trade and noncompete with only a small section being the actual NDA. Basically knee capping me on future business and adding liability without being paid a single penny. Yes I am aware that consideration must be given to bind a contract in some jurisdictions, but when they show you their design that binds the agreement. A few years back I started telling people I will "read" a one page 10 point type NDA for free. I won't sign it if it doesn't have an expiration date (except for classified government material) and a morals clause. If its more than one page I won't read it, and if it has a restriction of trade or **noncompete I won't sign it.

                Originally posted by rcaffin View Post
                You can email it to me, and I will have a look.
                Remember: a verbal offer of an NDA is legally binding.
                Cheers
                Roger Caffin
                The enforceability of verbal agreements varies by jurisdiction, and by provability. I've written and read a lot of contracts over the years, and while I am NOT a lawyer I have been in business almost my whole life. That being said I did recently enforce a verbal agreement with a former partnering business in order to recover property. I did it by having kept all texts, and messages about the agreement and property in possession. I could prove there was an agreement, and I could prove the property they had in their possession. Ultimately I pointed out that it was my opinion that theft by conversion of the property value in question might be a class 6 felony in our mutual home state. If the property was returned upon receipt of a demand letter then no crime had occurred. If property return was refused then I had no legal option, but to report it. Enforcing a verbal agreement can be quite difficult, time consuming, and messy. I spent easily five times as much time as the property was worth. Financially I might have been better off to just let them keep it. The problem at that point was all mine. I just could not let them profit from taking advantage of me. I was very careful not to threaten to do or not do anything once I realized there could potentially be a crime involved. That would be blackmail. Never threaten anything you can't legally personally do and never assume the authority of your local prosecutor. (Yes, I notified the local prosecutor.)

                ** When I say noncompete I must point out that I make molds. The noncompete is usually (almost always) not that I can't produce and sell the product that they sell from the mold or even that I can't sell their exact mold to somebody else. It says I can't work for any of their competitors. That is almost every single other customer I already have. Ie: Restriction of trade... and I don't get paid for it either. If I signed their agreement I would be legally obligated to tell all my other customers to frack off. Ones that have actually given me money to do work.

                I'm not saying don't sign an NDA. I'm saying if you do make sure its just an NDA, that it actually pays to sign it, and that it is worth the additional liability you have signed yourself up for. If you haven't had 30+ years reading and writing contracts hire an attorney to review it for you. If they don't caution you about things you can see for yourself get another attorney. If they say "its just boiler plate" run screaming from the room. They just want an easy fee. Even if you have spent 30 years reading and writing contracts I'd suggest that those agreements you might consider signing be passed by your attorney anyway.


                Originally posted by danlb View Post
                When I was consulting I found too many NDAs were written by lawyers who had no idea what their IT department actually did. I was seldom in a position to learn the company strategic plans when designing and installing new firewalls. On top of that they often combined clauses to assign IP rights to the company with such broad wording that one ( from the power company no less ) claimed rights to any creation of mine of any issue regardless of when it was created. Legally, I think they could have claimed ownership of my firstborn male son. Wish they would a few times.

                Dan
                You summed up much of what I had to say above nicely, and reminded me to mention that open ended and retroactive NDAs are highly suspect. One I find egregious is laying claim and rights to all methods I use or develop to produce their product. Basically saying any knew skill I learned could only be used if I was working for them for the rest of eternity.

                Yes, I know I am late to the party, but I just saw on YouTube a new "unpickable" lock that compares itself to and claims superiority to Abloy.

                *** I always wanted a welding stinger that looked like the north end of a south bound chicken. Often my welds look like somebody pointed the wrong end of a chicken at the joint and squeezed until something came out. Might as well look the part.

                Comment


                • #38
                  *** I always wanted a welding stinger that looked like the north end of a south bound chicken. Often my welds look like somebody pointed the wrong end of a chicken at the joint and squeezed until something came out. Might as well look the part.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Amusing, but nothing more.
                    I can see several ways to 'open' this lock. Granted, some of them involve the use of C4, but so what?
                    You can also take the owner's wife out the back and start beating her with a length of heavy rubber hose.

                    Conventional couth 'lock-picking' is only one way past such a lock.

                    Cheers
                    Roger

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by rcaffin View Post
                      Amusing, but nothing more.
                      I can see several ways to 'open' this lock. Granted, some of them involve the use of C4, but so what?
                      You can also take the owner's wife out the back and start beating her with a length of heavy rubber hose.

                      Conventional couth 'lock-picking' is only one way past such a lock.

                      Cheers
                      Roger
                      To be clear:

                      1. I already specifically mentioned exploits and breakage so iterating them doesn't add anything. Anybody who believes anything can't be opened by applying enough destructive power is deluded. Its so obvious as to necessarily be assumed and not worth repeating or restating. Willingness to commit violence against soft targets is irrelevant.

                      2. I have no skin is this game.

                      3. I have no way of knowing whether or not the lock I posted a video for is or isn't the one the OP in this thread was posting about.

                      Summary, I just thought it was an interesting lock design that might be relevant to a discussion of lock designs, which is why I posted the video separately from my opinions on property, agreements, intellectual property, enforcement, and potential fallout & legal ramifications. I personally think the design has merit, and the failures will almost always be the application. Even with sh!tty little locks I suspect that destructive answers are used more often than mechanical manipulation for unlawful opening. Ok, maybe not with the locks where you can use the Bic pen exploit...
                      *** I always wanted a welding stinger that looked like the north end of a south bound chicken. Often my welds look like somebody pointed the wrong end of a chicken at the joint and squeezed until something came out. Might as well look the part.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        An amusing aside:
                        You can have steel bars on all windows and deadlocks on all doors, but any smart burglar will simply lift a tile on the roof and come down through the ceiling trapdoor. He may not even leave any trace.

                        In Terry Pratchett's The Last Continent, Rincewind simply took the pins out of the door hinges.

                        Cheers
                        Roger

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by rcaffin View Post
                          An amusing aside:
                          You can have steel bars on all windows and deadlocks on all doors, but any smart burglar will simply lift a tile on the roof and come down through the ceiling trapdoor. He may not even leave any trace.

                          In Terry Pratchett's The Last Continent, Rincewind simply took the pins out of the door hinges.

                          Cheers
                          Roger
                          Most reputable security companies will recommend a combination of hardening and detection even if they don't do both. I always did. My most sophisticated "locking" was more about managing personnel than security no matter what the customer claimed. ie: Access control. Most did at least back it up with detection.

                          I once warned a jewelry store that they needed attic space detection between the ceiling tiles and the roof as well as roof top surveillance. Somebody cut through the roof with a cordless saw, and lifted a tile out of place to look inside within a month. Fortunately (sorta) several of the smiths were working late in the shop. I was going to share more, but it would be an education in burglar methods as well as detection methods. Some of which I never shared with anybody, but the customer and only those I thought that particular customer needed to know. The vandal and attempted thief slipped away undetected until somebody noticed a tile out of place later. Due to other overlapping measures they would likely have been detected long before doing anything more than facility damage.

                          Still, "oh, ha ha ha... I can cut a hole in the roof," doesn't change how well a lock mechanism does or does not work.

                          Most residences do not have exposed hinge pins (door opens in), and the hinges on most modern commercial doors will not slide apart when the door is closed. Those that have exposed hinges at all. I have tried opening doors by popping out pins on very old installations. Often it still requires physical damage to open the door far enough to gain ingress.

                          I never understood sending a lot of money in locks with the typical soft wood door jam. (there are ways to improve them) A firm kick will splinter the jam, and a prybar will take care of most of the rest. A thief is a thief. The penalty will not be less severe for not having broken the door or the jam.
                          Last edited by Bob La Londe; 05-31-2022, 11:59 AM.
                          *** I always wanted a welding stinger that looked like the north end of a south bound chicken. Often my welds look like somebody pointed the wrong end of a chicken at the joint and squeezed until something came out. Might as well look the part.

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Hi Bob

                            So, summary: dead bolts may be for image only?

                            Cheers
                            Roger

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Dead bolts are useful IF you have a properly built door and door jam. In my case the deadbolt will show them down, until they notice the 7 foot tall window next to the door.

                              Seriously, any lock that is visible MAY persuade the crook to go next door, so there is value in just having it even if it's not locked.

                              At the end of the project, there is a profound difference between spare parts and left over parts.

                              Location: SF East Bay.

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                A dead bolt can be a little tougher to kick in than just an entry lock. Just a little. A door wrap, long strike screws that go through the jam into the timber framing, and positioning the dead bolt much higher all help a little more. Of course as was pointed out those big side lights on either side of the door aren't doing you any favors.

                                *** I always wanted a welding stinger that looked like the north end of a south bound chicken. Often my welds look like somebody pointed the wrong end of a chicken at the joint and squeezed until something came out. Might as well look the part.

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